Have any of you had a hard time finding...

[Voltimus]

I'm an ex-Navy Avionics tech, when I got out I figured I'd go to where the basis of our economy sits, in oil.
If you haven't heard me rant before, the programmers that work in the Gulf of Mexico are very tight lipped concerning their knowledge. As an example, how many members of this site work in the Gulf of Mexico? Don't be bashful, speak up.
I started after 2 years in military tech school, a tour on a carrier during the Gulf war.(what is it with Gulfs) so, that when I got out I could do battle with High School dropouts for a job at Taco Bell in Oregon (my home state). I moved to Louisiana because I figured if I was going to be homeless, it should be someplace warm. bawling
I went from Helper to Electrician to Tech to partime Programmer/Tech. In the course of 12 years. There are probably about 2000 people in my field of work in the Gulf. 20 of them are programmers (they don't talk to me because I'm not a full fledged programmer)500 of them are competent electricians and the rest I wouldn't let touch my toaster. I try to learn as much as possible every time I work a project. I do believe that programming is not a destination, but a journey (as someone I consider intelligent has stated before).
Why do I love my job? Because I'm a "computer geek"
My advice, find a computer geek, pay him/her decent wages and feed his/her curiousity like a starving chia pet. You'll have a well rounded tech in about 3 years.

 

[Ken Moore]

When a person seeking employment as at maint. technician or electrician, says they have PLC knowledge. I ask them to write a program that will toggle a light on and off everytime I depress a momentary push button (flip flop circuit). I tell them they can use any mfg. terminology, any type of instruction, as many rungs as they want. It just has to work.
So far about 90% can't do it.

 

[RichBlunt]

THATS disturbing, if you said do it in one rung, then I could kind of understand, even I find myself straining to remember the cleanest way to do it.

In Canada, I would agree with the 4 types of electricians, last few places I have been at, electricians have been pretty good, some excellent, I caught one guy reading something about Planck's constant and blackholes!

It doesnt take much to program, but it takes real talent to be detailed, and efficient.

 

[rsdoran]

I have been tagged as being dramatic, I think the term was drama queen, for some posts I have made. I admit I get hyper at times and make statements uncalled for.

After reading some of these posts I believe the drama thing has been lifted off me for now.

First I will state I am basically an electronics technician with an AS degree. I also have auto mechanic training. Over the years I have obtained training in hydraulics/pneumatics. I have EPA certification for handling freon. I have taken welding courses but I will never be a real welder.

For many years I was in the Amusement business and traveled alot. I rebuilt machines (rides) on a regular basis. My first exposure to plcs, servos, proportional control etc all came from the rides.

Since leaving the amusement business and entering the industrial/manufacturing field I have found location and companies can be a major issue with hiring qualified people.

Using myself as an example I recently moved back to the house I grew up in. Prior to moving I did the standard resume/network thing and got many responses and offers but all of them were 100 miles or more from my home. One job even had a 28 hr base work week with a base salary of 37500 but roughly 500 miles away.

I dont mind doing mechanic work but I do have an issue with confined spaces. I enjoy repairing and rebuilding everything from cylinders, pumps, panels.....what have you. I have spent years attempting to learn more so I can avoid some of the menial labor tasks but most "maintenance" positions require more labor intensive work than all the rest.

The big issue is that ANYONE that works to learn more usually doesnt get paid more so for many its not worth the effort.

My present job is as a maintenance tech, its a union plant so the pay is fixed...I too can buy 8 or 9 big macs with an hours pay. The guy I work with made 67500 in 2003. He has no plc/electrical background but was a boiler tech in the Navy so has a good grasp of most things.

When it comes to computers, plcs, networks etc I have more training/experience than anyone at the plant. I doubt I will ever open a laptop at this place but I am not really worried about it.

The issue of hiring qualified maintenance people is becoming confused because of plcs etc. Look at what the person can do and willingness to be trained. Whether a mechanic or electrician you should not expect them to be a plc programmer in a maintenance position, you should expect them to be qualified to maintain/repair machines and/or facilities based on their prior experience and training.

If you need people to know more than you should be willing to train them or provide training.

Think about it. Electricians may spend 4 years to obtain journeyman, with work and classroom involved with more years needed to obtain a Masters. Welders and industrial mechanics may go thru 2 yrs or more of courses and training before being certified.

All these people spend years learning to do a job....BUT then get told they arent qualified or capable because they dont know plcs or ....

The key issue is location, if people apply that are young they may have skills but not all that you need, they may be willing to learn and/or relocate/travel if necessary.

If they are older they may or may not have the skills you want but will have no need to learn more because they have provided for their family etc with the skills they have. An older person is also less likely to travel or relocate.

Take me as an example: I can
Flip your flops or flip hamburgers
Toggle your bits or byte your...
Divert your product, label it, scan it, .....
Build panels, pumps, cylinders
Work with hydraulics, pneumatics, HVAC, computers....

I have a house with no payments, no car payments (at this time) so if necessary I could do the " Would you like fries with that?" and provide an income. I will not relocate nor travel long distances on a daily basis.

I am different in one aspect though, I like to learn so have enrolled at UAB to "attempt" to obtain my Bachelors degree in Engineering. I may never get to use the degree but I will have it for personal satisfaction. Thats the reason I do not want to travel alot.

Personal opinion, I think companies and/or the people hiring for these kind of jobs have decided that a semi-skilled labor position all of a sudden should equate to someone with an engineering degree. Think about it, schools train in:
Welding
Electronics
Electrical
Fluidpower
Industrial Maintenance
Mechanics
Machinists

But y'all want people that do all the above but get paid the same as they would doing any one of the jobs.

Just dont make sense.

 

[john paley]

I was a lucky guy. I did the military electronic training thing.I say lucky because I told the recruiter that I wanted a MOS that put me in Redstone Arsenal for a while. He enrolled me in a 33 week SAM radar school.

Then I went to tech school 2 years, then got into plant amintenance in 1982.

I was good with magnetic relay logic and ladders. Then along came the Allen Bradley PLC-2. I got in on the ground floor with PLC's at our plant and got pretty good at it and wrote a few programs (our EE's didn't know how--or want to know).

A couple of years later when the time came "to pay me or not to pay me" They didn't pay me. I interviewed at a new plant in town and my old plant then decided to pay me--too little too late. Worked at the new place 15 years and learned a lot of things about Porcess PID's drives, etc, as well as more PLC's.

I now work for an integrator 30 miles from home, not too far, and learn about how a lot of people manufacture a lot of things.

But like I say, I was lucky. Most of the larger plants have PLC people and it's hard for the floor electrician to get his chance. I know that when I did our plant's PLC's, I didn't want just anybody poking around and altering my code.

At our place now, the bosses (old programmers, themselves) have chosen a few of the more talented installation guys and made them "techs". They got hand me down (1 or 2 years old--I've been here 22 months and I'm on my 2nd PC--they were both new when I got them) laptops and all the software they need to learn PLC's MMI's and CAD. They were/are started out on smaller jobs and service calls (a big relief for the other programmers). But it's a good idea for them to develop their skills and the do make more money than before.

 

[Jnelson]

Amen RS.

It makes me laugh... I read the classified ads in the local paper and there was a job for a maintence electrician that needed the following qualifications. This is only a small snip.

Must know hydraulics, Pneumatics, Machine repair, Welding, Plumbing, Basic Carpentry, JANITORIAL, and be proficent in all aspects of PLC troubleshooting and programming is required.

I swear to god all of these companys think that any shmuck in the world can whip out there computer and just start banging out code. They downplay programming as if it is no big deal, everybody is doing it now so no one is special anymore. Of course this also means that you are not worth any more money.

BTW, I called the company and asked them if all of their janitors were programming plc's in the company? They told me that any competent person can do programming and did not feel it was no where as complicated as computer programming! What the F@*%?

Belive it or not, this is not the only company that thinks this way. I have run into this allot in the last couple years. Man what are these companies thinking and what is the future of the profession?

What a joke....

PS. The job paid $9.50 an hour to start with quarterly increases to $11.00 an hour after one year!

 

[RichBlunt]

Well when their plc programmer/janitor destroys a few thousand worth of equipment or god forbid gets somebody hurt or worse then they might reconsider.

 

[Fred Floggle]

i don't mind doing it but....

The buggers are going to pay for it . These people still believe that they pay for your time , not your experience . I always get the old waffle " well , we'd like you to do it , but it seems a bit expensive " , the stock reply is "if you want me to do it , thats the price , unless of course you can't afford it" .
Same thing with spares , trawl around to buy up a load of old junk because the customer is too tight to upgrade then they moan " joe soap has that doofermoulder for twenty quid , but you want fifty ?" , well the same thing , mine are twenty quid when I don't have any .
When will people understand that what we do (assuming we do it properly) is a real skill , particularly with the multitrade guys , I have seen such abortions of code , and the customer asks for mods - stock answer "no , get the other guy - I'll only rewrite it " , but the other guy has escaped .
I am rewriting some code now S7 for a big machine ( actually two machines ) 18 loops and about 60 motors , and feed forward calcs and other stuff - and though I say it myself , it is really quite sexy . I have taken real trouble on the job (it is for a chinese customer who has been messed about ) , and everything looks and is just right , but all they do is moan when they get the bill .
I'd like to ask all the decent engineers to "guest" post what they consider a reasonable hourly rate is for good programming and commissioning - the engineer must have a good working mechanical and electrical knowledge , be able to program and turn a spanner , if necessary , use machine shop equipment , and deal with electrical and panel work - what is the right money for this guy ? remember , that you are not time lost when panel mods need to be done , or the hydraulic spool is piped up wrong .
Fred

 

[AndyT]

Very disturbing if this is where the industry is going but then it may also explain some of the calls we get into Tech Services.

Andy

 

[mgvol]

I have trouble finding electricians that will follow a schematic without making undocumented deviations from design. If I ran across any that could actually do ladder logic, I would probably wet my pants. Most of the ones I have had the "pleasure" of working with over the past year and a half are more concerned with finding a carpenter with a piece of wire in his hand so they can run to the steward an file a grievance, than they are about learning how this equipment they will be called on to maintain actually works. Like many who have posted here, I too am an old Navy vet who started in this trade as an 8.75/hour electrician and learned this automation stuff OJT, from people who were good enough to share their knowledge. So it really torques me when I get some of the grief from trade "craftsmen" that seem to think holding on to that coffee cup is as strenuous as it needs to be. Don't get me wrong, their are some good ones out there, but as somone else noted in an earlier post, they sure do seem to have a lot of gray hair.

 

[Rod]

What labor rate?

$28 - $36 for the knowledge.

Reality - $16.5 to do ground up rebuilds. Complete headstock rebearing,cross slides and turrets to fab up panels with Mig and plasma. Run conduit, pull wire. Build panel, write ladder for Fanuc21Ti. Write docs and sell to customer. You have 6 weeks - get busy!

Rod (The CNC dude) what little hair is left is grey.


PS:
All the navy dudes - how do you ground a sub? Is it then a 'floating ground'?

 

[mgvol]

Single-Point ground (at least to us Sonar-types)

 

[harryting]

Amen RS.

It makes me laugh... I read the classified ads in the local paper and there was a job for a maintence electrician that needed the following qualifications. This is only a small snip.

Must know hydraulics, Pneumatics, Machine repair, Welding, Plumbing, Basic Carpentry, JANITORIAL, and be proficent in all aspects of PLC troubleshooting and programming is required.

....

HAHAHAHAHAHA way too funny and I see it too on Help Wanted Ads. In any case, they usually get what they (NOT) paid for.

Ken Moore, I like your little test.

 

[Ken Moore]

Clarification

Regular maintenance people do not have access to plc's. We have technicians that do instrument calibrations and installations, trouble shooting etc... The techs don't have to do any programming, but they have to be able to trouble shoot bad field devices, check scaling . So, they need to be able to move around a program and follow the logic. So we ask for someone "familiar" with PLC's.

Many of the resume's (I see them all, even the HR rejects)include programming experience. So...I ask them to do the flip flop circuit.

 

[Eric Nelson]

Must know hydraulics, Pneumatics, Machine repair, Welding, Plumbing, Basic Carpentry, JANITORIAL, and be proficent in all aspects of PLC troubleshooting and programming is required.

Hey John, was janitorial actually capitalized in the ad? If so, that's REALLY funny. Maybe the toilet's been backed up since the last guy left, and they're REALLY desperate?...

beerchug

-Eric