Work is work, but this is ridiculus.

OkiePC said:
This sounds like a "start from scratch" project, and I agree to give a high quote and then if you get the job, at least you have some padding in the price to cover the demo time and re-write. Maybe it is just me, but I really get more of a kick out of tossing old garbage in the trash and starting completely over than I do from untangling some otherbuddy's web of "field fit" mess.
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I agree 100% with OkiePC!!! I've run across many projects like you describe in my 20 years in integration. One that comes to mind was also a baler that was rigged, bypassed, taped, glued, and nailed together. If you are quoting the project, I recommend quoting an entire electrical package and reviewing the quote with the customer at the machine instead of emailing. You can easily point out issues and explain why the cost is so high to do it right.
 
with a name like noxcuses you gotta believe him.... haha. but oh it is so very true. if there is money to do it twice there is money to do it once the right way
 
I guess that anyone who spends time in the integration business will come across a nightmare failed project that someone else failed on.

One that comes to mind for me was an ATEX (flamable solvents) 8 colour printing machine that a UK company gave the upgrade order to a competent mechanical engineer who had a mate that could change a light bulb. New PLC and unsuitable drives were installed, the old EXd push button boxes were replaced with ordinary boxes and no IS barriers. This was a non-stop printing machine but the flying splice unwind and rewind didn't work after the upgrade. The customer lost patience after a year (and several fires!) and called in the cavalry. Putting the machine right cost almost as much as starting from scratch.

In my view, you have to do the job right or walk away.

Nick
 
To make matters worse, I just visited the customers other plant. A breakdown situation. Opened up the MCC and found the SSR's submerged in a hydraulic oil bath. The customers onsite maintainer had been keeping the machine running with several boxes of fuses. I counted 28 fuses in the pile. Wired by the same idiot as the machine I have inherited. Can everyone say "job security"o_O
 
Well ..... those SSRs do require lots of lubrication!!

Did the clown responsible for all this stuff work for that company or were they dumb enough to contract this stuff to him??
 
When I tansfered from one of my company's facilities to my current one I had the displeasure of being introduced to a heat treat. The second most important piece of equipment in my plant. My boss called me over and told me "there is a problem with the heat treat. It will not go to high fire." He quickly described the problem and then said "I've got to get to a meeting...I'm sure you can handle it." I turned to the maintenance electrician who had been working on it and asked "Where are the drawings." That brought a blank look to his face. As it turns out there were sketches but the drawings were long since lost. I opened the panel and was taken aback by the clutter and lack of organization. Capped off wires were everywhere and bypasses crisscrossed the panel. This did not make me happy. After 45 minutes of tracing wires, looking at sketches, and testing relays I found a relay with a bad coil.

The first thing I did (when I had free time) was to made a new copy of the electrical ladder. As other problems occurred we ended up replacing all the conduit and wires. Finally we replaced and reorganized control panels. It now is a decent machine to work on but it has been a long road.

I've seen panels with no wire numbers and I've seen one panel (from another plant) where the inside was saturated with oil. How the hell does that happed?
 
Poor workmanship like this makes me wonder why ou would pay the bill in th first place? if you don't and he takes you to court I'd say you'd have a good chance in proving it is not to code...
 
James Mcquade said:
In situations like these, I would write a formal report documenting the problems and having them sign the report and make a copy. Strictly from a liability standpoint. If someone got hurt, you will have at least notified them of the problems and have covered yourself.

The worst one I did was an injection mold machine. We just happened to be at the plant discussing a job when an old unit that was bought at a sale came in and didn't work. I had the owner open the panel door and a massive bundle of wires fell to the floor. All wire labels went flying. all the wire was corroded. Found the problem, closed the door, quoted the job, and fortunately didn't get it. Found out later the one who got the job lost money big time due to undocumented and improper changes.

regards,
james
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I spent half a day watching an injection mold machine run a while back, looking for occasional glitches where the cycle froze or the temperatures weren't at setpoint. The controls had been upgraded before the plant bought the machine, using a combination of A-B CompactLogix, Watlow RM temperature controller, Delta motion controller with pressure control option and Parker CTC panel PC and SCADA software. The ladder logic and graphics had a professional look to them, but the electrical schematics for the upgrade looked like they had been drawn in MS Paint. Here's the real kicker: the controls vendor was out of business and could provide neither support nor the password to their protected *proprietary* logic for pressure control.

Almost a year after receiving my report, they asked for a quote to fix the program. The only way that I would quote reprogramming the machine was to start from scratch - trace and redraw all electrical/pneumatic/hydraulic schematics and panel layouts, then write a design document for the machine operation and have them sign off on it. Only then would we start writing a new PLC program and integrating it to the other controls. We quoted a generous amount of money to do the job and have yet to hear a reply.

Mike
 
Mike Lamond said:
I spent half a day watching an injection mold machine run a while back, looking for occasional glitches where the cycle froze or the temperatures weren't at setpoint. The controls had been upgraded before the plant bought the machine, using a combination of A-B CompactLogix, Watlow RM temperature controller, Delta motion controller with pressure control option and Parker CTC panel PC and SCADA software. The ladder logic and graphics had a professional look to them, but the electrical schematics for the upgrade looked like they had been drawn in MS Paint. Here's the real kicker: the controls vendor was out of business and could provide neither support nor the password to their protected *proprietary* logic for pressure control.

Almost a year after receiving my report, they asked for a quote to fix the program. The only way that I would quote reprogramming the machine was to start from scratch - trace and redraw all electrical/pneumatic/hydraulic schematics and panel layouts, then write a design document for the machine operation and have them sign off on it. Only then would we start writing a new PLC program and integrating it to the other controls. We quoted a generous amount of money to do the job and have yet to hear a reply.

Mike
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Those are the jobs that come in the week before the annual maintenance stop (read Christmas) with three days of stop to achieve it :).
 
Erie Pa has lots of injection molding companies. I used to see those conditions all the time.
There is usually not enough profit in the process to support a rebuild. OR, it's a consumer part and demand may fall off at any time. OR, the loss of revenue while down is considerable.
The marginal nature of the business is usually the reason for the cheap initial job.
Sometimes all you can do is live with it.
 
First day with the "project" machine. Went online with processor, no program. Customer supplies the contractor supplied backup copy (on a camera SD card) . Program built with demo version of software. Tried pinging the webserver module - no response, I think he blew the ethernet port. Go online through the serial port. Download program.

Surprise- no faults. Found no less than 24 examples of M bits used with no matching coils (not 8000 series).

First input checked (after rebuilding his supposed stop loop), retro p-cell using metallized duct tape as the reflector, why doesn't it work? Hmmmmo_O

It's going to be a long day.
PS: Just found the control xfmr neutral floating.
 
Hey Kid,

I have a 400 ton press that is older than Methuselah with a PLC that looks like it came over with the Mayflower. The wiring has been patched up so many times that I can literally barely find the wiring trays, and even worse, the relays.

Like yours, no wires are labeled, no relays are labeled, and the drive inside the MCC doesn't have a back light anymore (this employees professional head-scratch troubleshooting)

Not one of the instructions in the logic are tagged. Honestly, I don't see why they even changed it from relay logic to PLC logic in the 1st place. The only thing the press is missing now is seal of approval from Thomas Edison
 
Quote:" I've seen panels with no wire numbers and I've seen one panel (from another plant) where the inside was saturated with oil. How the hell does that happen?"
I did a PLC upgrade a few years ago, Changed an AB Bulletin 1774 PLC and 8 racks of I/O in 3 4 door cabinets to a PLC-5 (i'm dating myself!). The three cabinets had vortex coolers. One of the maintenance guys decided that ALL air drops in the plant needed air line lubricators! All of the PLC hardware was covered in oil and there was 1/2" of oil in the bottom of the cabinets.
All of the wire numbers were falling off of the wires or were floating on the oil in the bottom of the enclosure. We had to disconnect every I/O wire,wipe the wire with a solvent soaked rag and relabel each wire. The project took 14 days 3 guys on 3 shifts plus myself non stop.
 
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