OT: Diodes in control circuits?

pimpim32 said:
I see by SPDT you eally meant SinglePDT.
In that case just use rsdoran drawing if you still want to go with 3-wire control.(still i do not see the use for R1 to come back as PLC input, we do not know if PLC will pickup 12V)

To revert to original question I would not use diodes in this way, just for the simple reason why should I add a component ift it is not nedeed, and second in real world is a little bit more difficult to see a faulty diode then a faulty relay when troubleshooting a panel.

Do not know if is any safety rule against them though to be used like this.

From other conversations I know he uses SLC 500's which offer inputs that will work 10-30vdc. You would monitor the PB stop using the input to know to de-energize everything in the program...a safety factor, whats the use of the PB if once it is released the drive auto restarts for some reason?

The diodes are just out of the norm for most plants, good idea, but just uncommon is why I prefer using what is avaiable. He is teaching classes so it offers reason(s) to show the SPDT wired backwards per se.

But I am just BUBBA.
 
pimpim32 said:
I see by SPDT you eally meant SinglePDT.
In that case just use rsdoran drawing if you still want to go with 3-wire control.(still i do not see the use for R1 to come back as PLC input, we do not know if PLC will pickup 12V)

To revert to original question I would not use diodes in this way, just for the simple reason why should I add a component ift it is not nedeed, and second in real world is a little bit more difficult to see a faulty diode then a faulty relay when troubleshooting a panel.

Do not know if is any safety rule against them though to be used like this.

Thanks. The PLC uses 120VAC for I/O except te 0-10VDC analog. You would think in a lab 24V would be used.

These trainers were here when I got here. I don't think anyone was using them until I started. The first thing I did was connect the 10 504's on a DH+ network and then get a CLX Bridge to Ethernet. The bridge and was here, but nobody could get it to work. Now, students can download their prograns to any of the PLC trainers. Only three of the PLC's have analog, and there are only three drives. I had to build the LAN too. The schools IT crew leave me alone. I am trying to get a server to manage lab projects and software.

Its funny, when a grant comes in we spend hundreds of thousands on trainers and the like, but getting a server, or a few relays is a pain!
 
DickDV said:
PeterW, regarding your question concerning my comment "the only problem I see is that most control circuits are AC and diodes don't work the same way in AC", I can assure you that diodes work the same way where I live and elsewhere too, even in Canada and the UK!

Now I'm joking, if you please!

What I meant to say is that, in general, control circuits are 120VAC or more recently, 24VAC. I didn't mean drive control circuits. Drive digital inputs have been 12 or 24VDC as long as I've been associated with drives (18 years). For 120VAC control, you needed to add interposing relays.



I wasn't questioning the workings of a diode (honest)

I was questioning the statement that in general control circuits are AC.

In the UK they are not, they are generally DC (24VDC to be precise).

The systems I have worked in Canada (so far) are also 24VDC.

Older systems in both Canada and the UK may have 110VAC, but newer systems are generally 24VDC.


My question was, is the statement that AC control, whether 110 or 24, is more common in the USA. It seems where you work that is true, but is that true across the States.
 
It has changed to 24vdc in the US too, primarily thru Euro influence which has been doing it for at least 25 years, in my experience.

At one time in the US it was common to have control power the same as supply voltage i.e. 480vac supply then starter coils etc would have 480vac coils.

This was not possible with plcs and the safety factors involved so something had to change.
 
Lancie1,

Thanks for your effort. I do have one question. Using your drawing, if R1 is energized to give control to the PLC, and R3 is energized to run reverse, and I then energize R2 to start the drive, will I not loose the stop signal? The start and stop signals are momentary, but the directional is maintained. This is a matter of the drive requirements. I should have posted more information about the drive.
Many drives that I encounter have a control input for Run Forward and Another for Run Reverse (in which case it would work as is). That is what I assumed (incorrectly I see now). In your case, my circuit would need some rework. I will do that if you want, though I believe you now have found a solution that meets your requirements.

As DickDV asked, does your drive have the capability of two-wire control? One input, On for Run, Off for stop, with a second input for Reverse?

The start and stop signals are momentary, but the directional is maintained.
I can see how to do it using 3 relays, no diodes, but start/stop signal would be maintained. For many drives, although momentary signals work, if the signals are maintained it does not affect the functions. How does your drive work in that case?
 
Last edited:
Lancie1,


It is capable of two wire control, but the trainer is set up for three wire control.. That ws the major issue. I wanted to maintain the trainer's original functionality, and add the PLC portion.

Thanks, and yes, I believe we have it.

Happy Turkey Day all.

Its time to start cooking, and drink a few beers.
 
The trouble is that without the diodes, if R1 is not energized, current travels through the normally closed switch and contacts of R1 to the Start and Reverse relay contacts. This allows the drive to be started or reversed, but not stopped with the PLC. Likewise for the PB's if R1 is energized.
I think you are looking at it as if each relay must control ONE and ONLY ONE FUNCTION. That is normally the case with hard-wired relay logic. But with a PLC, there is no reason not to internally define "STOP" as being a combination of 2 or more outputs being energized. This applies to the START and STOP functions also. With that in mind, it becomes much easier to make it work using fewer relays and no diodes.

Here is a question that might clear up the logic:

Why are you adding R1 contacts to the STOP funciton?

Think about it. STOP is a funciton that should be made to work under any condition, whether you add a half dozen more more additinal control points, or not. There is no need to switch the STOP between "Switch Control" and "PLC Control". STOP is STOP and that is one reason it was usually a Normally Closed contact on hard-wired switches. That allowed 2 (or 6, or more) STOP switches to be in series, but they all worked equally well. STOP is a "series" (or AND Boolean function, where START is usually a "parallel" (or OR Boolean function). Keeping that in mind, it is easy to see that you can remove BOTH the R1 closeed and R1 open from the STOP branch, then put your STOP switches in series, and because the STOP must be a closed circuit, either the PLC or the Switch can stop the drive at any time (no restraints, as there should be none on the STOP function). To paraphrase Shakespeare: A STOP is a stop by any other name. No modifiers, interposing relays, modifiers, or clarifiers should ever be (nor or they needed) for a STOP circuit. STOP should work at all control station, under any and all conditions of control, no matter which set of controls has been assigned the Start, Reverse, or other capabilities.

An example comes to mind. At the 1985 fire at the TVA Brown's Ferry Nuclear Plant, the operators were down to one set of controls to Start/Stop the reactor cooling water pump. Suppose those controls had been fixed so some other switch (that got burned in the fire) had to be made before they would work? We wouuld probably have had a nuclear meltdown and the lower 2/3's of the US would still be uninhabitable.

Here is another circuit that should work. R3 can easily be eliminated and replaced with a 2nd R2 N.O. contact.

 
R1 = Switch or PLC control selector
R2 = PLC Start
R3 = PLC Stop
R4 = PLC Reverse

|-12 VDC
| N.O.START

| R1 SWITCH START (to drive)
|--|/|------+---0 \ 0---+-------------------------------------
| | | (momemtary-but maintained should work)
| R1 | R2 |
|--| |---+-------| |----+

| | |
| | | N.C.STOP
| | | R3 SWITCH STOP (to drive)
|----------------|/|----------0_|_0---------------------------
| | | (maintained-break to stop)

| | |
| | | N.O.REVERSE
| | | SWITCH REVERSE (to drive)
| | +----0 \ 0---+----------------------------
| | | (maintained)
| | R4 |
| +--------| |----+
|



 
Last edited:
Lancie1 said:
Why are you adding R1 contacts to the STOP funciton?

Think about it. STOP is a funciton that should be made to work under any condition, whether you add a half dozen more more additinal control points, or not.

You are completely right. This is about the biggest brain **** I've had in a while. I think I got hung up trying to use the existing wiring, minimizing the soldering needed. Funny thing, I actually enjoy soldering.

Side Note: Teaching is different game. I often thought my parents who both taught would not make it in a mill. I now have a whole new respect for teaching. I stay busier, and multitask more than ever. I don't get 3:00am phone calls, but I am warn out at the end of the day. I certainly enjoy the classroom/lab. but that is only a fraction of the work.
 
plchacker, my thought was to use an ice cube relay to convert your panel pushbuttons to a maintained on/off signal. Then everything can be 2-wire maintained and you reduce the plc outputs by one. Lots of different ways to get to the same result---ain't it fun!!!

PeterW, the way you worded your original question, it could be twisted a little to mean the diodes rather than the obvious meaning about control voltage. So I took the opportunity to make a joke of it. It was all in fun! In Michigan where I am located, I rarely see a panel builder doing anything but 120vac control. Lots of this is automotive, of course.
 
Someone draw this up for me. A 4 pole relay. Commons to the drive. NC's to the pushbuttons. NO's to the PLC outputs.
Schematic will look clean, and function will be obvious. Don't try to simplify or reduce wiring.
In this mode, it will be easy to understand, explain to students, and troubleshoot.

Edit: I was posting from the end of page 2. I see Lancie has a good solution on page 3.
 
Last edited:
R3 can easily be eliminated and replaced with a 2nd R2 N.O. contact.
Before someone asks, I meant to combine the above with this:
But with a PLC, there is no reason not to internally define "STOP" as being a combination of 2 or more outputs being energized.
To make it work with one less relay (R3), you have to define Switch Control as R1 off and R2 ON. In other words when the PLC sees R1 go off, it energizes R2, so that the STOP circuit will still work (with R3 replaced with N.O. R2 contact. This soultion would work, but it is confusing and not something that the average beginning PLC student would easily grasp. In other words, interesting that it can be done, but not recommended for this classroom situation.
 
Lancie1,



I guess that plchacker has plans to control the drive in the manual mode with no PLC involved, and so turning off the plc in the manual mode would disable the drive at all by disconnecting the stop wire... Although i'm agree that 'stop' button should stop the drive in any case because operators should not care what is the current mode, they should just push the stop button, so how about such scheme (the only difference from your scheme is that the stop wire ignore the plc's stop output in the manual mode-marked green), please let me know your opinion....





thanks
 
Last edited:
 
|-12 VDC

| N.O.START

| R1 SWITCH START (to drive)

|--|/|------+---0 \ 0---+-------------------------------------

| | | (momemtary-but maintained should work)

| R1 | R2 |

|--| |---+-------| |----+


| | |

| | +----------+ N.C.STOP
|
| | | R3 | SWITCH STOP (to drive)
|
|----------------|/|---+------0_|_0---------------------------

| | | (maintained-break to stop)


| | |

| | | N.O.REVERSE

| | | SWITCH REVERSE (to drive)

| | +----0 \ 0---+----------------------------

| | | (maintained)

| | R4 |

| +--------| |----+

|





 

Similar Topics

Can anyone recommend a Datadiode that is cost effective or would we be better with a 2 port Firewall (if they exist) Looking to try and get data...
Replies
7
Views
2,141
Hello, I can test/check the diodes in a VFD if the VFD has DC bus terminals available. All of the VFDs I see sold today don't provide access to...
Replies
15
Views
5,667
I recently heard that using diodes for unipolar encoder connection is a good idea to reduce the influence of noise. The diodes go between A and...
Replies
0
Views
1,550
Having a thick headed morning. I am looking at protecting some 24V d.c. circuits with TVS diodes and am getting myself confused. For a 24V d.c...
Replies
2
Views
2,164
Our current design includes freewheeling diodes on speed critical DC pneumatic solenoids. The purpose is supposed to be to speed up the response...
Replies
39
Views
16,981
Back
Top Bottom