TIA Portal v15 - does it overwrite v14 / v13?

[uptown47]

Hi all,

I've just received version 15 of TIA Portal.

The blurb on the Siemens website says...

Important note

TIA Portal project versions V13 SP1 .. V14 SP1 are upgraded to the project version V15 with TIA Portal V15. If you have to use a TIA Portal project version V13 SP1 .. V14 SP1, we recommend an additional installation of the corresponding software in parallel to TIA Portal V15. The license acquired for V15 is valid for all older TIA Portal Versions.

We have software that we want to continue to use v13 and v14 for (so that OEM's who visit our site can continue to use the software as well).

However, am I right in thinking that if I install version 15 it will overwrite my version 13 and 14 and consolidate them into one v15 install ?

If this is the case, is there a way of installing v15 in parallel with v13 and v14 (ideally without using a virtual machine) ??

Thanks

[JesperMP]

You can install V15 in parallel with V13 and V14.
Only PLCSIM may be a problem. As far as I know only one version of this can be installed at a time. This was/is also a problem for V13 and V14.

[uptown47]

Thanks Jesper.

So, if I go ahead and put v15 on my system it won't over-write v14 etc? It will just appear as a separate install will it?

Cheers

[beethoven_ii]

I read it as if it was saying you could install them all in parallel on the same machine. Personally I prefer to have each version on seperate VM's. It's getting a bit frustrating with the constant updates and version numbers.

[uptown47]

Originally Posted by beethoven_ii

I read it as if it was saying you could install them all in parallel on the same machine. Personally I prefer to have each version on seperate VM's. It's getting a bit frustrating with the constant updates and version numbers.

Yep, it seems just like a Siemens money-making machine to me. Making customers pay for software development.

If we open software in v14 and an OEM attends site with v13 then we have stopped them from being able to work.

[JRW]

Those corporations.. I can’t believe they are trying to make money. Haha

Uptown
I don’t understand your thinking
V13 came with V14 software.
A 14 authorization key works with v13.
If I have a project that can’t be converted, just open in that version. Bam done

[uptown47]

Originally Posted by JRW

Those corporations.. I can’t believe they are trying to make money. Haha

Uptown
I don’t understand your thinking
V13 came with V14 software.
A 14 authorization key works with v13.
If I have a project that can’t be converted, just open in that version. Bam done

Hi JRW,

I'm still a bit annoyed at Siemens releasing this as v10.5 which was woeful and then charging to upgrade to v11 and then again for v12 and then again for v13.

You're correct though that it was a welcome surprise when they released v14 and gave a 'free' v13 license as well. But I think that was because they were essentially different applications. V14 was almost a re-write of the code as I understand it.

Then we need to pay again to get v15....

Of course I understand that companies need to make money but it seems (as per my original post) that they have been charging their customers for software development.

If they had released a fully working version of the software and added bits to it as v10.6 / v10.7 etc.... then offered a chargeable upgrade to v11 as a massive upgrade then that's fine.

Especially if you can choose to upgrade or not.

But the way Siemens do their upgrades is very underhand. They use a ratchet model to upgrade. Once you've upgraded you can't go back. And that forces everyone else to also upgrade. I still remember WinCC Flex SP3 *deleting* Protool off your computer without expressly saying that was going to happen.

I meet lots of Siemens customers in the PLC world and I don't remember *ever* meeting one who didn't feel like Siemens had an underhand sneaky way of forcing money out of them. Not a good accolade for any company.

But... each to their own... YMMV etc

[JRW]

The days of automation manufacturers giving away software is long gone
The SUS is your friend

Read this thread... you can’t get past the operator without a contract

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=113705

[cardosocea]

Originally Posted by JRW

The days of automation manufacturers giving away software is long gone
The SUS is your friend

Read this thread... you can’t get past the operator without a contract

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=113705

Is it though?
As far as I can remember you had to pay for programming tools for the big players... now, perhaps more than ever, other players in the market will give you the tools to work on their PLCs like B&R, Beckhoff...

An even more interesting realization I had a while back is that everyone is jumping on the Ethernet bandwagon for fieldbuses not realising that they are taking down a barrier for replacement with other brands.

Before, you had a DH+ or controlnet field bus and changing the whole lot with whatever was the supported fieldbus from a manufacturer would add to cost and time to replace. With Ethernet, all the infrastructure is the same and standard across all vendors.

SCADA and comms drivers will possibly be the final barrier that holds people from changing brands in an easier way to lighten the software cost over time.

[mk42]

For your original question, v14 and v15 can be side by side with no problem, with one exception. Only one SCADA package from Siemens can be installed at a time (WinCC Pro v14, WinCC Pro v15, WinCC v7, WinCC v6, etc). Something to do with the database in the background.

As long as you aren't installing WinCC Pro, you're fine.

Originally Posted by uptown47

Making customers pay for software development.

Are you saying that you're surprised that product development costs money? Automation vendors can choose to just eat the cost of the software development, but then they have to make the HW cost more to balance it out. You're going to pay for it in the end.

Besides, if software is free, then automation vendors pretty much lose the commercial relationship with many integrators who don't buy hw.

[Iner]

Originally Posted by mk42

Besides, if software is free, then automation vendors pretty much lose the commercial relationship with many integrators who don't buy hw.

But they would still sell a big number of hardware.

The versionning is out of control for TIA PORTAL, they released 5 full versions in 7 years. Without counting the SP.

They are pushing smaller companies that needs several licences toward piracy/VMs and they probably know it. They probably charge the HW as the result.

[uptown47]

Originally Posted by mk42

For your original question, v14 and v15 can be side by side with no problem, with one exception. Only one SCADA package from Siemens can be installed at a time (WinCC Pro v14, WinCC Pro v15, WinCC v7, WinCC v6, etc). Something to do with the database in the background.

As long as you aren't installing WinCC Pro, you're fine.

Thank you for confirming that. Much appreciated :-)

Originally Posted by mk42

Are you saying that you're surprised that product development costs money? Automation vendors can choose to just eat the cost of the software development, but then they have to make the HW cost more to balance it out. You're going to pay for it in the end.

Besides, if software is free, then automation vendors pretty much lose the commercial relationship with many integrators who don't buy hw.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that, in the case of TIA Portal, (IMHO) they released a sub-standard non-working version and charged people for each subsequent iteration.

They basically used their customer base as unwitting beta-testers.

Obviously, I've no argument in companies charging for software. I've also no arguments for companies charging for software development. And R&D etc.

However, I don't agree with releasing software that doesn't function as it should and then continuing to develop the software and increment it in full versions so that customers have to keep paying in order to get working software.

Most companies release new feature rich software and customers are encouraged to upgrade just because the new software is much better / faster / functional.

Siemens do it another way. They release software that is slower / bug-ridden and then charge people for it and then, via a ratchet system of making it difficult to rollback they strong-arm customers into upgrading knowing that they have a large customer base who are tied to their products. Eventually (probably around v13 in TIA case) the software comes good and begins to work as it should.

I just find it a bit of an underhand way to run a business.

[JRW]

I installed V15 on my pc this weekend
I now have v13, v14 and v15 on the same pc with no problems

[uptown47]

Originally Posted by JRW

I installed V15 on my pc this weekend
I now have v13, v14 and v15 on the same pc with no problems

Nice one JRW. Going to do the install myself this week. Good to know they all live happily together.

Thanks

[mk42]

Originally Posted by uptown47

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm simply saying that, in the case of TIA Portal, (IMHO) they released a sub-standard non-working version and charged people for each subsequent iteration.

They basically used their customer base as unwitting beta-testers.

Obviously, I've no argument in companies charging for software. I've also no arguments for companies charging for software development. And R&D etc.

Apologies, I misunderstood

Originally Posted by uptown47

However, I don't agree with releasing software that doesn't function as it should and then continuing to develop the software and increment it in full versions so that customers have to keep paying in order to get working software.

Most companies release new feature rich software and customers are encouraged to upgrade just because the new software is much better / faster / functional.

Siemens do it another way. They release software that is slower / bug-ridden and then charge people for it and then, via a ratchet system of making it difficult to rollback they strong-arm customers into upgrading knowing that they have a large customer base who are tied to their products. Eventually (probably around v13 in TIA case) the software comes good and begins to work as it should.

I can't argue with that. The original release of Portal didn't have an Undo button, for goodness sake.

In theory, a customer can standardize on a version of Portal, and just use that one for a while without upgrading. In practice, it doesn't work that way at all.