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Old September 22nd, 2023, 05:47 PM   #1
CENTER
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Ge 90-30

I was wondering if someone has a few monuments to help me out with this GE program. I have been staring at it for the last hour. This is a web press from the 90s and started giving my customer a problem last week. The problem is with reverse inch, forward works fine. The sequence is like this
1. Depress forward inch button
2. You will get a 4 sec horn Rung 17, 18 and can inch for 10 sec
3. Depress the reverse inch button you should have a pulsing horn and the same 4 and 10 sec. Rung 19
The problem is when they depress the reverse inch you get a steady horn the reverse command to the drive. Rung 7 and after 4 sec you get the inch command to the drive. Rung 21. By the way the folder clutch is disengaged. I canít see anything in the logic that will pules the horn hopefully someone will have some insight into this. Attached in the PDF is the logic. Thanks for your time.
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 05:53 PM   #2
Steve Bailey
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There wasn't any attachment.

Has it ever worked correctly?
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 05:57 PM   #3
CENTER
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Yes I know working on it.
Attached Files
File Type: zip GE.zip (1.51 MB, 8 views)
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 06:05 PM   #4
CENTER
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Yes, it always worked. The problem is this is the only documentation I have and there is no way of knowing if on the install there were changes made. This documentation is from GE as delivered.
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 07:01 PM   #5
drbitboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CENTER View Post
Yes, it always worked.

does that include the pulsing horn before inching in reverse?
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Brian T. Carcich
i) Take care of the bits, and the bytes will take care of themselves.
ii) There is no software problem that cannot be solved with another layer of indirection.
iii) Measurement is hard.
iv) I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
v) I probably have the highest ratio of forum posts to actual applications in the field (but no longer ∞ ).
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 07:12 PM   #6
drbitboy
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%I0001 is inch forward, and %I0002 is inch backward?
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Brian T. Carcich
i) Take care of the bits, and the bytes will take care of themselves.
ii) There is no software problem that cannot be solved with another layer of indirection.
iii) Measurement is hard.
iv) I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
v) I probably have the highest ratio of forum posts to actual applications in the field (but no longer ∞ ).
vi) Hakuna matata.
vii) Bookkeeping.
viii) But I should be ignored.
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 07:17 PM   #7
drbitboy
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%I0004 (inverted safe/ready), %I0005 (stop loop status), %I0013 (guard) are all permissives that must be 1 for anything to move?

And %I0006 (web break) is part of an interlock that must usually be 1 but can be overridden by %I0009 (10% speed)?

And those are all combined into %Q0013 on rung 12?
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Brian T. Carcich
i) Take care of the bits, and the bytes will take care of themselves.
ii) There is no software problem that cannot be solved with another layer of indirection.
iii) Measurement is hard.
iv) I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
v) I probably have the highest ratio of forum posts to actual applications in the field (but no longer ∞ ).
vi) Hakuna matata.
vii) Bookkeeping.
viii) But I should be ignored.

Last edited by drbitboy; September 22nd, 2023 at 07:21 PM.
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 07:28 PM   #8
drbitboy
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but yes, I don't see anything there that would cause the horn to pulse before inching in any direction.
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Brian T. Carcich
i) Take care of the bits, and the bytes will take care of themselves.
ii) There is no software problem that cannot be solved with another layer of indirection.
iii) Measurement is hard.
iv) I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
v) I probably have the highest ratio of forum posts to actual applications in the field (but no longer ∞ ).
vi) Hakuna matata.
vii) Bookkeeping.
viii) But I should be ignored.
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 07:33 PM   #9
CENTER
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That's what I see. But every press that has reverse has a different tone or pulse for reverse and I don't think it was added in field unless this was a prototype. Thanks for taking a look I thought I missed something.
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Old September 22nd, 2023, 11:00 PM   #10
Steve Bailey
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You also mentioned that the inch commands only stay active for 10 seconds, but I don't see a timer for that. There are only two timers in the program, both with presets of 4 seconds.
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Old September 23rd, 2023, 11:09 AM   #11
CENTER
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Having the same problem with that. How or what is the .10 TRM on rung 17& 19?
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Old September 23rd, 2023, 11:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CENTER View Post
Having the same problem with that. How or what is the .10 TMR on rung 17& 19?

TMR => Timer, which is actually a counter of time periods

0.10s => Timer resolution per TMR count, configuration parameter of the TMR, i.e. in this case a tenth of a second per count.

PV => Timer Preset Value i.e. the number of timer (0.10s) periods, with the input rung condition continuously True*, that must pass before the timer output changes from False to True, i.e. in this case, PV=40, 40 counts x 0.10 second/count => 4.0 seconds.

* "continuously True" actually means "True when evaluated on every consecutive discrete scan cycle over 40 time periods"
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Brian T. Carcich
i) Take care of the bits, and the bytes will take care of themselves.
ii) There is no software problem that cannot be solved with another layer of indirection.
iii) Measurement is hard.
iv) I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
v) I probably have the highest ratio of forum posts to actual applications in the field (but no longer ∞ ).
vi) Hakuna matata.
vii) Bookkeeping.
viii) But I should be ignored.
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Old September 23rd, 2023, 03:41 PM   #13
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Gotcha. Thanks for the explanation I had no idear what that was. Still don't know why it's used there.
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Old September 23rd, 2023, 08:25 PM   #14
drbitboy
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it is an on-delay timer. see here and here, and also look for the string TMR in that PDF for more information.

The timer (TMR a.k.a. On-Delay Timer or TON in other brands) is driven by the state, True or False, of the input rung, like the image below. The key thing to notice in the current situation is that, once the logic to inch forward or backward evaluates to True, that feeds the input rung of the TON the timer starts counting tenth-second time periods, but it does not assign a 1 to the output bit of the timer until it reaches a count of 40 i.e. until the input rung of the TON has been True continuously for 4s. So the logic is
  • For the first 4s that the inch logic (%T0002 or %Q0012) is true,
    • The TMR is counting
    • AND
    • the TMR count is less than 40
      • so the TMR output bit (%T0009) remains 0
    • so sound the horn per Rung 18
      • inch logic true (%T0002 or %Q0012 value is 1)
      • TMR output bit value is 0 (%T0009)
  • After the inch logic has been true for 4s,
    • The TMR count reaches 40
      • so the TMR output bit becomes 1
    • so stop horn per Rung 18:
      • TMR output bit value is 1
    • and inch the motor per Rung 21
      • %T0009 value is 1
      • inch logic true (%T0002 or %Q0012 value is 1)
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Brian T. Carcich
i) Take care of the bits, and the bytes will take care of themselves.
ii) There is no software problem that cannot be solved with another layer of indirection.
iii) Measurement is hard.
iv) I solemnly swear that I am up to no good
v) I probably have the highest ratio of forum posts to actual applications in the field (but no longer ∞ ).
vi) Hakuna matata.
vii) Bookkeeping.
viii) But I should be ignored.
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Old September 23rd, 2023, 10:58 PM   #15
CENTER
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Thanks for the explanation and the manuals.
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