Starting from scratch on functioning system

ceilingwalker

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Mar 2010
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Phoenix, AZ
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Hello. I am sure plenty of you here have been in this dilemma. I have a ControLogix PLC, PanelView Plus 400 HMI, connected to a functioning CNG system. I have nothing in the way of HMI program (other than runtime files) nor RSL5000. I have only what I was able to upload. So, I must discover I/O and understand how this system is running because I have been tasked with making some changes to both HMI as well as PLC. If this were a washing machine, I would be less apprehensive however, being a CNG system makes me very nervous and less than enthusiastic to just jump in. Could someone please give me ideas as to how I should approach this? Even in the RSL5000 I am not sure if everything there is being used. The HMI shows fan motor failures every day, even though the fan motor is running fine. According to the HMI the compressor motor isn't running, even though I know it is. I have no idea who did the retrofit on this. No one in the plant has any idea who did it either. The gentleman that used to take care of it is no longer here. I attached a copy of the .acd and it is simple however, I need to find out what the HMI is using, without being able to use my FTView-ME Studio. The PanelView is also password protected and wouldn't you know it, nobody knows the password! With the help of several people on this forum it's been decided it is clear that a start from scratch is my only available option. I was not able to open the runtime files in my Studio. I guess what I am really asking is, since I know you seasoned veteran's have probably done a lot of this, I wondered if you could tell me what process you follow, when given my particular scenario? This is to dangerous of a situation to just leap into this. Thank you all for your time.
 
Normally when i go to a place where hmi is new to me, the fastest way to find out what's going on with the hmi is to look at some special tags, if you find that they are not modified in the plc then they belong to the hmi, for instance STG4_HI must come from HMI since there are only one reference in the program and to be make a change this has to be done on the HMI. Without doing anything try to understand how the software behaves. If you believe that you understood everthing then you can try to modify it otherwise forget it and let other enter. The program seems to be not complicated, be careful with safety barriers, if i were you i would get all the drawings before accepting this job. Maybe you can make and initial offer just to discover i/o and making drawings.
 
Do you mean the HMI is passworded because when you try to restore the project or runtime into FT View Studio it prompts for a password?

Have you tried just pressing enter, and not inputting any password?

I say this because by default when creating a project archive it has the encryption check box enabled by default, and it is still possible to press next to archive even without putting in an encryption password.

I've ran into this issue before and it was as simple as pressing enter and not inputting a password when restoring the application.
 
Widelto's suggestion of looking for tags that have only non-destructive references is an excellent one.

You would have to run a cross-reference on each tag and sort by "Destructive Y/N" to find out if any logic is writing to the tag. If not, then it's likely to be an HMI tag.

You need to present this to your management as a documentation and investigation project first, and a change/modify project second.

They won't care, so you need to be very firm. It doesn't matter who screwed up or did a lousy job in the past. If the system explodes tomorrow it won't be the guys who don't work there anymore who are wheeled from the hospital and into court.
 
Hello. I am sure plenty of you here have been in this dilemma. I have a ControLogix PLC, PanelView Plus 400 HMI, connected to a functioning CNG system. I have nothing in the way of HMI program (other than runtime files) nor RSL5000. I have only what I was able to upload. So, I must discover I/O and understand how this system is running because I have been tasked with making some changes to both HMI as well as PLC. If this were a washing machine, I would be less apprehensive however, being a CNG system makes me very nervous and less than enthusiastic to just jump in. Could someone please give me ideas as to how I should approach this? Even in the RSL5000 I am not sure if everything there is being used. The HMI shows fan motor failures every day, even though the fan motor is running fine. According to the HMI the compressor motor isn't running, even though I know it is. I have no idea who did the retrofit on this. No one in the plant has any idea who did it either. The gentleman that used to take care of it is no longer here. I attached a copy of the .acd and it is simple however, I need to find out what the HMI is using, without being able to use my FTView-ME Studio. The PanelView is also password protected and wouldn't you know it, nobody knows the password! With the help of several people on this forum it's been decided it is clear that a start from scratch is my only available option. I was not able to open the runtime files in my Studio. I guess what I am really asking is, since I know you seasoned veteran's have probably done a lot of this, I wondered if you could tell me what process you follow, when given my particular scenario? This is to dangerous of a situation to just leap into this. Thank you all for your time.

I don't mean to be crass but if you are not experienced with a job like this a CNG system is not something you want to cut your teeth on because a mistake could be very ugly.

This gear you describe is fairly new so it has not been there that long so someone along the way did it and whomever did got paid so work with your finance dept to find out who did. Do you have engineering staff? who would have been in charge of this project? Use them to find the info you need them fire them for doing such a poor job keeping up with the documentation and history.

You say the guy that used to take care of it is no longer there? Maybe he has more info on the history of the machine or upgrade or can lead you further. Find him and ask him. Call him or take him out for a few rounds of beer and pick his brain. it would be cheaper and easier than making a mistake on this system.

I would find it hard to swallow that a system that has hardware that new does not have some sort of paper trail you could follow to get some history on the machine or the upgrade.

Having CNG systems on your site that no one can get into and have no idea who the contractor was etc. is just really poor engineering and management practices IMHO. If it's that poorly ran I would be polishing my resume and looking for a job if I were you.

In reference to what Ken said Keep in mind when you change this system you own it. If someone gets hurt and they can even hint that it happened because of something you did wrong it's lawsuit time.

The proof that you don't have intimate knowledge and understanding of the system is now on the internet on a forum anyone can find. Be careful and use caution.
 
Normally when i go to a place where hmi is new to me, the fastest way to find out what's going on with the hmi is to look at some special tags, if you find that they are not modified in the plc then they belong to the hmi, for instance STG4_HI must come from HMI since there are only one reference in the program and to be make a change this has to be done on the HMI. Without doing anything try to understand how the software behaves. If you believe that you understood everthing then you can try to modify it otherwise forget it and let other enter. The program seems to be not complicated, be careful with safety barriers, if i were you i would get all the drawings before accepting this job. Maybe you can make and initial offer just to discover i/o and making drawings.

Thank you for this information. (y)
 
Do you mean the HMI is passworded because when you try to restore the project or runtime into FT View Studio it prompts for a password?

Have you tried just pressing enter, and not inputting any password?

I say this because by default when creating a project archive it has the encryption check box enabled by default, and it is still possible to press next to archive even without putting in an encryption password.

I've ran into this issue before and it was as simple as pressing enter and not inputting a password when restoring the application.

When I try opening using Studio it won't allow any of my runtimes to open, and allow for discovery of tags being used and so-on. I literally have nothing on this unit, paperwork, existing projects for PLC or PV+, nothing. It is a functioning unit so I don't have the luxury of say a list of tags that are being used.
 
Widelto's suggestion of looking for tags that have only non-destructive references is an excellent one.

You would have to run a cross-reference on each tag and sort by "Destructive Y/N" to find out if any logic is writing to the tag. If not, then it's likely to be an HMI tag.

You need to present this to your management as a documentation and investigation project first, and a change/modify project second.

They won't care, so you need to be very firm. It doesn't matter who screwed up or did a lousy job in the past. If the system explodes tomorrow it won't be the guys who don't work there anymore who are wheeled from the hospital and into court.

Point well taken. This is why I will not touch anything on this until I feel very comfortable. I have worked on systems using HF Gas in the past that caused a plant evacuation, and a scrubber to blow-apart, so I learned this lesson well and will not repeat it. I already told them "the more you push me the longer it will be". I would rather be fired than kill someone!

To make sure I understand you correctly, are you saying if it is not destructive, is it likely to be an HMI tag, or do I have that reversed. Thank you
 
Normally when i go to a place where hmi is new to me, the fastest way to find out what's going on with the hmi is to look at some special tags, if you find that they are not modified in the plc then they belong to the hmi, for instance STG4_HI must come from HMI since there are only one reference in the program and to be make a change this has to be done on the HMI. Without doing anything try to understand how the software behaves. If you believe that you understood everthing then you can try to modify it otherwise forget it and let other enter. The program seems to be not complicated, be careful with safety barriers, if i were you i would get all the drawings before accepting this job. Maybe you can make and initial offer just to discover i/o and making drawings.

I just completed mapping all the I/O. Thank you for your advice, it worked perfect. That is a neat little trick to determining what's HMI related. Spot-on.
:site:
 
Widelto's suggestion of looking for tags that have only non-destructive references is an excellent one.

You would have to run a cross-reference on each tag and sort by "Destructive Y/N" to find out if any logic is writing to the tag. If not, then it's likely to be an HMI tag.

You need to present this to your management as a documentation and investigation project first, and a change/modify project second.

They won't care, so you need to be very firm. It doesn't matter who screwed up or did a lousy job in the past. If the system explodes tomorrow it won't be the guys who don't work there anymore who are wheeled from the hospital and into court.[/QUOTE

Thank you Ken, always a great help. It is for my employer, not bidding on a job (contract work). I let them know not to get a burr under their saddle, this was going to take considerable time because I have no documentation, and until I understand it fully, I will change nothing. Thankfully they were patient. Other employer's haven't been as patient. Thanks again. :site:
 

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