Rockwell Software Stinks

My 2c :

Regarding software stability : I think we see a lot more complaining about Rockwell on this front because it's so prevalent in the anglosphere. I have some experience with Rockwell, Siemens, Schneider and Omron (Sysmac). The platform I had the least trouble with was Sysmac.

With Rockwell, I've had weird crash issues (opening their IO-Link gateway config page inside Studio V31 has 1/3 chance of outright crashing Studio, 1/3 chance of failing to open, the watch window thing, configuring drives randomly crashing, etc), I've had weird corruption issues (AOI prescan routines suddenly failing to execute, PLC not communicating with PanelView requiring a redownload of the PLC program, etc).

Some days it's pretty infuriating, but then again all platforms are in their way. I was writing a program with SoMachine 4.3 SP2, and the FBs I had written incorporated methods. I was gonna write the program in LAD but each time I tried to call a FB method in LAD it wouldn't let me. Had all sorts of exceptions popping out trying to compile (to be clear, unhandled exceptions in SoMachine itself). I ended up settling on SFC with actions in ST (where method calls did work) and transitions in LAD.

Regarding UX and language implementation : Rockwell's ladder editor is IMO bar none the best. I just think they should borrow a page from Sysmac, get rid of the CPT and CMP instructions where you can't see what's going on and allow us to just write ST in the middle of ladder with value monitoring. I think Mitsubishi also allows this. It's a great little feature.

The ST editor is improved but needs more work. I don't like how parameter passing works (can't pass a parameter in the call if it's not set to "required", so in stock TONR for example, you actually can't pass anything in the instruction call, it all has to be outside). Also in general it's very divergent from all other platforms. The syntax should be brought a bit closer to IEC standards.

Finally, also wish you could change the whole colour scheme, not just the logic window. White and blue kills my eyes.

Regarding the beaten horse : I write most of my code in LAD. I'm not particularly in love with LAD (or any PLC language) but in my neck of the woods, clients big enough to have specs usually either require it or Rockwell. It makes sense to use LAD in Rockwell for most things because their other language implementations are worse IMO, so it kinda ends up being LAD by default. I'll use other languages for tasks that make more sense in them if I can. My preference would be for seamless LAD and ST like Sysmac.

I think it's unfortunate that there is this mental blockage with ST at least in NA. I've met loads of maintenance guys who didn't want to be anywhere near it because it's "computer language" and "complex". They could get by no problem with their other machines written in LAD but any time the plant people bought something made in Europe and forgot to/didn't specify LAD in the contract and it arrived in ST, it'd become this incomprehensible arcane thing even if it were mostly typical boolean logic they'd have no problem to troubleshoot in LAD. In this respect, unfortunately it also makes sense to write in LAD.

It's not that they were unable to learn or even didn't want to per se, they were just scared like how some people become scared of math, think they're bad at math and it ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Thing is especially with Rockwell it's not any more complex. It's just differently written. I think this reputation is also because the ST editor pre-V30 was just terrible. If inline value monitoring was on by default I think it'd help tremendously to destroy this block. Also, more and more of the younger generation has at least dabbled into "traditional" computer languages so that will help too.

Now on platforms that implement a lot more of the OOP paradigm, that's a different discussion and it stops even being about language per se IMO. I'm not even sure how much of it is implemented in languages other than ST on these platforms since it tends to be demonstrated in ST only, and the kind of people who'd write OOP-heavy PLC programs would probably be extremely familiar with textual languages. It's more about how deep in the paradigm you dive considering maintenance in NA usually expects to be able to go into PLCs. Cause if personnel is lost with Rockwell ST, they're going to be 6 feet outta the map when they see a SUPER^ method call or FB-heavy OOP design patterns, whether they're in LAD or ST.
 
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Some days it's pretty infuriating, but then again all platforms are in their way.
Absolutely. I'm a TwinCAT 3 user and fan, and although it's powerful and I love it, it still has its quirks at times as well that can be downright frustrating. But... nothing is perfect.

Rockwell's ladder editor is IMO bar none the best.
I wouldn't say 'bar none'. Saying it like that sounds as if nothing even comes close, which I don't agree with. Again, TwinCAT's Ladder editor is very good and from my experience, only a couple of noticeable (and negligible) differences between it and Rockwell's LD editor. See my previous posts

....and allow us to just write ST in the middle of ladder with value monitoring. I think Mitsubishi also allows this. It's a great little feature.
TwinCAT has this feature as well, and I agree, it's very nice to have. Comes in handy a lot.

Finally, also wish you could change the whole colour scheme, not just the logic window. White and blue kills my eyes.
You can do this in TwinCAT. It uses a VS shell so you can easily can change to dark theme.

I pick on Rockwell a lot, as many here probably know. But in reality, my gripes are really aimed at all 'black box' PLC's, and even some dedicated motion controllers. They just can't do all the things that a PC based PLC (Beckhoff) can do.
 
Does it allow multiple users editing online at once?
Yes, but probably not exactly the way you might think. For multiple users in a single PLC project within the Solution, the users can be logged in all at the same time. However, all users have to temporarily log out of the PLC for any changes to take affect. Not perfect, but it works. TwinCAT uses GIT to keep everyone synced. Multiuser is described here. Click on "Concept" after opening from the link.

One way for multiusers to work around having to all log out for an online change to take affect, is to create multiple PLC projects within the same Solution, where each PLC project in the Solution might be a section or portion of the machine/line. In this way, all developers can go online and make changes without all having to log out. There are other benefits to this too, described here.

What about uploading, merging... can you upload the running program to include comments and descriptions?
If you're thinking it might be like the old SLC platform, where rung comments and descriptions have to be saved and uploaded separately, no, that is not the case in TwinCAT. All comments and descriptions are saved and uploaded with the program. There's no extra steps involved with any of that, nor should there be with any modern PLC platform today, IMO.
 
Yes, but probably not exactly the way you might think. For multiple users in a single PLC project within the Solution, the users can be logged in all at the same time. However, all users have to temporarily log out of the PLC for any changes to take affect. Not perfect, but it works. TwinCAT uses GIT to keep everyone synced. Multiuser is described here. Click on "Concept" after opening from the link.

One way for multiusers to work around having to all log out for an online change to take affect, is to create multiple PLC projects within the same Solution, where each PLC project in the Solution might be a section or portion of the machine/line. In this way, all developers can go online and make changes without all having to log out. There are other benefits to this too, described here.


If you're thinking it might be like the old SLC platform, where rung comments and descriptions have to be saved and uploaded separately, no, that is not the case in TwinCAT. All comments and descriptions are saved and uploaded with the program. There's no extra steps involved with any of that, nor should there be with any modern PLC platform today, IMO.

Multiple users at once it's a huge need for integrators and regardless of a workaround is a deal breaker for me.

By default you can upload source code then? I heard otherwise.
 
Multiple users at once it's a huge need for integrators and regardless of a workaround is a deal breaker for me.

By default you can upload source code then? I heard otherwise.

Ehh....you're just looking for any reason to say 'no'. Multiuser functionality is there and it works, it just works different. If it didn't work, world renowned companies known for quality and performance, like BWM wouldn't standardize to the platform. Happy New Year.
 
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Ehh....you're just looking for any reason to say 'no'. Multiuser functionality is there and it works, it just works different. If it didn't work, world renowned companies known for quality and performance, like BWM wouldn't standardize to the platform. Happy New Year.

Not even a little bit. If I could save in hardware and software costs I would. I've been down this road many times. In the end, we always agree to use Rockwell, from an integrator standpoint and end user.

The closet I got was omron, one of the best features was you can use ladder, st, fb, etc wherever you want. It's a clever feature.

I typically have this conversation at least one a year, is this the year we can stop using Rockwell all together. It's always a hard no collectively. Although, from HMI ignition was able to move us over. Trust me, I'm just waiting for something better, but right now that doesn't exist for us and our customers.
 
Not even a little bit. If I could save in hardware and software costs I would. I've been down this road many times. In the end, we always agree to use Rockwell, from an integrator standpoint and end user.

The closet I got was omron, one of the best features was you can use ladder, st, fb, etc wherever you want. It's a clever feature.

I typically have this conversation at least one a year, is this the year we can stop using Rockwell all together. It's always a hard no collectively. Although, from HMI ignition was able to move us over. Trust me, I'm just waiting for something better, but right now that doesn't exist for us and our customers.

Sent you a few PMs
 
Always an interesting conversation. I have had to use most software over the years. Have not used Codesys - not all that popular in Australia.
Few comments from my point of view.


Not a fan of Rockwell at all - never have been - particularly the cost of support and upgrades.


Siemens is not too bad - cost of support and upgrades is high.

Mitsubishi is not too bad but infects the hard drive with a mass of files.


Schneider gets clunkier with every new release - hate it! Cost of support and upgrades is high.


Normally try to use Omron CX-One - very easy and no issues - no need to install it in a VM at all - it just works. There are only 2 files saved. Cost of support and software is nil - once you buy the software it updates on the internet without any annual fee at all.


Omron Sysmac Studio - hate it but many like it - too much work and not all that intuitive. Cost of support and software is nil - once you buy the software it updates on the internet without any annual fee at all.


Currently using Emerson - really pretty good - shades of LM90 really so quite familiar. Certainly my second choice of platform. Cost of support and upgrades is high.
 
Start Edits -> Accept Edits -> Test Edits -> Assemble Edits... whew. Honey, I just changed an NO contact to an NC one.

I had to learn hotkeys at a job a few years ago. They said mouse clicks were a waste of time Studio V. 32
Highlight the rung and hit enter.
Highlight the instruction and hit enter, type "XIO" and hit enter.
Press "Ctrl + Shift + F" and hit enter when the popup comes on screen. About 6 or 7 seconds total and ba da bing!! Done!!
 
Yes, there is more to PLC programming than the editing. There is the debugging. PLCs are pretty good if the program only consists of coils and contacts. It is easy to see what is on or off most of the time. However, it is hard to debug things that happens so quickly that the information can't be uploaded to the IDE fast enough to see the changes. This is where PLCs fail. There should be some sort of event log that can capture events in a queue with a time stamp.

Is it not common on other brands to have this? Again I just use the bargain basement stuff. Both Do-More and Psuite have bit and word histograms as well as configurable data loggers to view running programs on a scan by scan level or at whatever sample rate is desired. Psuite also has a debugging mode when offline that allows you to step through every rung one by one, or run scans to certain breakpoints so you can see those "non-simple" instructions behavior on a scan by scan basis. It's saved my *** countless times. I'd be surprised if the big names didn't have this...wait no I wouldn't.

I do agree for free Productivity is good software, although it has some shortcomings. Does it allow more than one user to be online and make edits at the same time?

Nope, as I said, the ladder editor alone RA is not all that special, outside the ladder they have a number a useful things for larger projects like being able to have all your friends in different parts of the program at the same time, if you have them...
 
Yes, there is more to PLC programming than the editing. There is the debugging. PLCs are pretty good if the program only consists of coils and contacts. It is easy to see what is on or off most of the time. However, it is hard to debug things that happens so quickly that the information can't be uploaded to the IDE fast enough to see the changes. [..] There should be some sort of event log that can capture events in a queue with a time stamp.

This is where PLCs fail.
Siemens has this.

1. In the regular online view, you will see the status of the variables in the order they are processed by the program. So you can see a BOOL be turned on in one rung, and turned off in the next rung. Obviously it only helps if the states doesnt change too fast. It is the PLC that logs the status and send the information to the programming software. The programming software tells the PLC that it is looking at a location in the program, and the PLC then sends the information pertaining to the program location to the to the programming software. I.e the PLC doesnt merely send status information of the variables in the view at the end of its scan or randomly during the scan. I know that PLC5 and SLC500 did not have this feature, dont know about ControlLogix.
2. You can trace PLC variables, and the trace will be cycle true. I.e. you will see the exact state changes of the variables, also if the variables changes within the same PLC scan. This is invaluable for troubleshooting fast processes.
3. You can program messages with exact timestamps. These messages can appear on an HMI for example. This is valuable for when the order in which events happens is important.
 
Reading through this thread is quite interesting.

I am at best not a fan of any of the Rockwell offerings. It is all quite convoluted, their implementation sucks, and they basically have ridden on the name for a very long time.

All that said I'm going to be snide and say for usability GE/Emerson Proficy has RA beat. I rarely ever have a versioning issue, I don't have driver problems, I don't have crashes. All of the headaches I have with RSLogix/Studio 500/5000 I do not have with Proficy 9.0+. I'm sure it has it's drawbacks but I know for most of my customers it's been a very simple and smooth transition away from AB and Rockwell, and financially it's been fruitful as well.
 
Funnily enough the only PLC brand I didn't like using was GE/Emerson. I thought Proficy was limited and configuring PLCs was more complicated than necessary.
 

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