More teaching, less telling?

In another thread, one of the forum members was threatening to 'throw his toys out of the pram' . Translated, he got a bit upset because he wasn't happy about how the forum members just answer questions rather than trying to teach others to understand the problem, and then solve it themselves. I had hoped he would start a thread like this himself, but that doesn't seem to have happened, apologies if I missed it.

Teaching is a difficult thing to do, we don't give anywhere enough respect to teachers. A really good teacher explains complicated things in simple ways, it takes a lot more thought than just giving an answer. I did try doing 'teaching' in a thread, but a 'junior' member jumped in and gave the answer, it made the member happy to have answered the question, but didn't help the OP to learn. So if we chose to do more teaching it would have to be understood by all members that it is baaaad to jump in with answers without giving the OP chance to think.

So do we have the talent to teach?
Should we be trying to teach?

As a side issue we would have to be aware of those that need quick answers, they wouldn't thank us if a factory is shut down and we take it as a teaching opportunity.

BryanG said:

Translated, he got a bit upset because he wasn't happy about how the forum members just answer questions rather than trying to teach others to understand the problem, and then solve it themselves....

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I did not see that thread BUT... no one is getting paid to be here so ANY answers should be taking as that, someone is spending their time in answering or trying to answer another persons question, if you want to 'learn' then get a book (manual) and read, go to school or buy a PLC and learn.

If they are starting a thread then ask in such a way... "can someone explain" but most of us on here are just looking to help or get an answer

BryanG said:

(1) So do we have the talent to teach?
(2) Should we be trying to teach?

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Caveat: I can't help but think that this is not the first thread where this has been discussed; maybe someone with better google-fu could find some of those threads?

(1) this site does have an [ONLINE TUTORIAL] link above

(1.1) I like to think I always have my teacher's hat on*, but dunno if I actually have the talent.(2) I think yes, IFF it's called for**. But this is social media, so it's anarchy. I would think most here recognize that simply giving an OP an answer, without fully understanding the OP's process, is a potentially risky thing to do. If it's a real process, there could be safety concerns; I remember one OP had a boss who bought a used press with the control wiring cut, and members here were basically "bad idea, don't touch it, we are not giving any advice other than that." If it's a student asking about an assignment, giving an answer without understanding risks helping someone to pass a course with a certificate, but without the knowledge implied by that certificate, who then gets a job and is let loose on real equipment that could do damage and or harm someone if not properly programmed.

* I have tried to respect the "show your work" ethic/policy, and continually point OPs to @Ron Beaufort's boot camp video series and to the Patterns of Ladder Logic page, but certainly sometimes my OCD gets the better of me if the problem is too interesting.

** e.g. OP declares the problem as an assignment, or posts an an obvious assignment description.

I'm an occasional teacher in a university setting. I don't think of this forum as primarily educational - it seems to me primarily focused on problem-solving for professionals.

I do try to explain whys and wherefores in my explanations, but I often don't have the time or inclination. Teaching (and learning) takes a lot more time and effort than answering, and if you're trying to earn a living day to day sometimes you have to go for the brief reply. And if the original poster is on the ball they learn from that, too. If they aren't, teaching efforts may well be wasted on them anyway.

I constantly teach, whether it's a maintenance tech that wants to learn PLC's or someone in or new to the field that wants to learn more.


Unfortunately - for the reason for the OP - teaching someone here is impractical. It would take hours of personal tutoring (in person or online chatting) so what happens here is a few basic guidelines, thoughts or even hints are given with the answer hoping the answer sets in as the teaching.

If that makes sense, as I read it back it sounds weird to me, but hopefully the idea comes across.

BryanG said:

In another thread, one of the forum members was threatening to 'throw his toys out of the pram' . Translated, he got a bit upset because he wasn't happy about how the forum members just answer questions rather than trying to teach others to understand the problem, and then solve it themselves. I had hoped he would start a thread like this himself, but that doesn't seem to have happened, apologies if I missed it.

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Providing answers is relatively easy compared to teaching. Teaching requires more back ground and explanation. Sometimes the OP is asking for the contents of a book when this is a forum.

Teaching is a difficult thing to do, we don't give anywhere enough respect to teachers. A really good teacher explains complicated things in simple ways,

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I find it takes a certain level of energy and adaptability. In my case I ask what the student is trying to do. TOO OFTEN ON THIS FORUM THE OP SEEMS TO KEEP ALL THE DETAILS A SECRET.

it takes a lot more thought than just giving an answer. I did try doing 'teaching' in a thread, but a 'junior' member jumped in and gave the answer, it made the member happy to have answered the question, but didn't help the OP to learn.

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Like you said, giving an answer is much faster than explaining all that goes into the answer. I found this is true in tech support. I could fix the callers problem faster than he could explain it given I had a trend and what the application was. For the most part, it has all been done before.

So if we chose to do more teaching it would have to be understood by all members that it is baaaad to jump in with answers without giving the OP chance to think.

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So how many of you have watched my Peter Ponders PID YouTube videos to learn about PID/ control loop control? I bet few. You want to tune your particular system and that is it.

So do we have the talent to teach?

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There are probably a dozen or so people that could do this.
Should we be trying to teach?
I know that many Siemens users would have been lost without LD [Ar1,#P0.0] ,s help. I know I didn't get his name right.

As a side issue we would have to be aware of those that need quick answers, they wouldn't thank us if a factory is shut down and we take it as a teaching opportunity.

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Yes, I mentioned this above.

Delta Motion has many courses for hydraulic motion control. We have taught many people on this forum.
http://www.deltamotion.com/education/
We have plenty of hands on equipment. We probably have some the best labs in the country. We have spent a lot of money on these system.
https://deltamotion.com/peter/Videos/Delta Training Systems.mp4

Ron Beaufort had training classes for PLC-5s. That requires an investment to have a few of those around plus the "hot rod" systems for learning temperature control.

Finally, I once made a webinar about temperature control. Only two people showed attended.

Peter Nachtwey said:

Finally, I once made a webinar about temperature control. Only two people showed attended.

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Don't take it too much to heart, it takes knowledge to understand what knowledge you are sharing. The field you are dealing with is not dealt with by people without much experience, although it is very applicable. You will admit that this statement is a paradox - you need someone with experience to do the job but there is no opportunity for the same to develop that experience. And I'm not talking about temperature control, but about modelling of automatic control systems.

BTW, although I've learned very, very much from this forum, and people like you, this forum just occasionally gave me solutions for my specific problems/challenges as I found surprisingly hard to find "thinking outside of the box" anywhere and even here, and I think that "thinking outside of the box" represents true "engineering mind" and not implementation of mathematical equations in real life (although it is highly respectable, applicable and useful). In my life I've learned more from people without knowledge than from people with knowledge (paradox again).

I_Automation said:

I constantly teach, whether it's a maintenance tech that wants to learn PLC's or someone in or new to the field that wants to learn more.


Unfortunately - for the reason for the OP - teaching someone here is impractical. It would take hours of personal tutoring (in person or online chatting) so what happens here is a few basic guidelines, thoughts or even hints are given with the answer hoping the answer sets in as the teaching.

If that makes sense, as I read it back it sounds weird to me, but hopefully the idea comes across.

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Gotcha, that makes perfect sense. Communication is hard, teaching is harder.

The real issue is that we can only teach ourselves, so teaching someone else is actually an illusion. The best we can hope for is some random statement in the middle of logorrhea that turns a light on.

I was invited to dinner once, and the host asked me to help his daughter's math problem. It was something I do well and I went full on laying the groundwork ... well, most of you have seen me get into it. About a third of the way through, this 14-year old or so figured out where I was going (Calculus), said "oh," closed the notebook, picked it up and walked away. She groked the last 10 minutes of what I was going to say in about a nanosecond. Her father said "aren't you going to say thank you?" but I have rarely been so chuffed (very pleased with myself) as that, because she was obviously way smarter than me.

there are four lines of thinking here.
1.
those who have had to learn from experience, they know the answer, but are
trying to teach by giving hints or suggestions. the make the poster think and he/she learns that way.
2.
the ones who want to learn and ask questions, accept our answers and suggestions, show their work, willing to put forth the effort, learn from this site and thanks everyone for their help. they keep coming back and ask questions and all the while they learn. they hopefully will then help others.
3.
those who take a class and at the last minute realize that the class homework is more time consuming than what they thought, and are desperate for answers. they don't want suggestions, they want the quick answer so they can get a good grade.
4.
those from #3 and those who got help from others without learning anything. they got a programming job and gave the HR person a lot of good answers so they could get the job. they now have a project and are back here looking for quick answers just to look good at the company. they are over their head and get mad when we offer hints and suggestions.

i thank everyone on this site, you have helped me with what i thought was a pretty tough project on more than one occasion. someone always had the solution with suggestions and hints. the TITANIC sank by hitting an iceberg that was only 10% out of the water. IT'S the 90% of the details that bite you, so i always ask lots of questions up front.

i often post a lengthy page of how to do a homework assignment and project. some at work think i am full of ****, others have taken what i gave them and go through the motion, learning as they go.

we have had several posters ask for help and then get down right rude at us wanting them to post their work, offer hints and make suggestions.

we all know these posters based on their language and responses.
all we can do is ask them to post their work, offer hints and suggestions, and see what they are made of. their response usually gives us a good idea and their future in this business.

i apologize for such a long post.
regards,
james

drbitboy said:

The real issue is that we can only teach ourselves, so teaching someone else is actually an illusion. The best we can hope for is some random statement in the middle of logorrhea that turns a light on.

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My classic example of this is teaching schoolchildren fractions.


My teacher drilled the subject into us until everyone in the class got it. That was months on only fractions.



The problem was it wasn't anything that could be taught. Each student had to have their own epiphany and suddenly understand the concept.



It just took some students a few days and others weeks or months, but it had to click in their brain and nothing any teacher could do, say or show mattered until that click happened.

I had a really complicate SCADA/HMI that was running a thermal oxidizer with a heat recovery that ran a boiler ( part of this https://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=27555 )

I spent an hour with a tech going over the controls and what it was doing and why it was doing it... after about 55 min I asked "do you have any questions" and his reply... pointing at the screen saver that was on the PC showing a beach "where do you think that is? the Caribbean?"

Point is, he did not hear a damn thing I said because he did not want to learn.

I agree that sometimes people just want an answer. This may be because they have a project behind schedule or a machine that is down or are just students unwilling to put the time and effort into their assignments.

I get a little frustrated when people try to quickly answer a question without having all of the information or without considering what the OP originally asked for. Or worse yet, someone requests additional information, yet proceeds to provide a solution for which we don't even have a clear idea of what is wanted. I have seen numerous posts where the OP posted a question or request for info and the thread was taken over by competing posters arguing over what was really wanted or whether the project was worthy of working on. Meanwhile, the OP never posted again after the initial post. In those cases, the OP (customer) is not even interested in the answer because the conversation was taken in a completely different direction.

Well, being a teacher and a student myself (aren't we all, really?), there is one thing I absolutely cannot stand when being "taught" something, especially when it's something completely new that I have nzero experience with, and that is when the "teacher" just says stuff like "do this"......"do that"......"do this"...."do that"....etc, etc. You're just telling and not showing! SHOW the student how to do it! Don't just tell! :angr: If you're just telling and not also showing, then you're not teaching and you're not helping. You are not helping the student learn! Ask questions to gauge where the student is at and their knowledge of the subject. Some hand-holding may be required in the beginning. Recall when you were a struggling student attempting to learn something challenging. Show, don't just tell.

Teaching is not an easy thing. Ron Beaufort may be together with Rsdoran (he is in heaven) are the ones who spend more time explaining some items here. Both have or used to have a web page of their own.

Normally Every time that some body like Peter Nachtwey , Pandiani , DrBitboy , Tom Jenkins and many others say something I put close attention and try to learn, by the way I´ve been present in the last 10 or more webinars from Delta motion.

Now back to subject we are talking about, I do agree, some people think that this forum is made to resolve all the questions, as Peter said OP sometimes do not mention the whole thing, even in some cases they give a vague explanation of the process they are trying to receive and answer.

Wait, Ron Beaufort is not with us anymore?

This forum is a difficult media for teaching. As others said in different ways, teaching is not the same as knowing what to do. Some of the brightest people I know in this profession just can't teach because to them, it's just natural and they don't understand why we just can't seems to grasp "simple" stuff.

For those who are interested in teaching, i have a few suggestions based on my experience both as a student and teacher in this realm.

- try to present the same concept in as many different way as possible.

- Teaching programming/technical stuff is different than say, teaching history. It's about as much as facts as a way of thinking. Exercise that walk through the process is the best' that shows how a problem is solved but hold back a bit of information. As the student get more advanced, hold back more and more of the steps.. eventually, the student should be able to construct the steps on their own.