6 year abandoned job..

It's a sort of 'what would you do' question.
6 years ago, I built a control panel for an existing system that was going to be upgraded.
I installed it and connected the original I/O to run as it already ran.
(that's not strictly true - it was vastly improved)
The upgrade was going to take about another 70+ I/O which was to be done in stages over the next few weeks.
The new panel was already programmed for this with all the extra contactors etc.
The upgrade never happened for whatever reason.
Don't get me wrong, I was paid in full without doing the extra work.

They have recently employed a new electrician and engineer and they are keen to put in the upgrades.
Except for - you probably guessed it, they expect it to be done for free.

Now, if they were a regular customer, I wouldn't be posting here but that is the only job I have ever done for them.


6 years ago... I ask you. With all the rate increases and such over that time.
The guarantee is long expired and I don't even know if the upgrades are still as the original spec (not been to site) but they seem to be cutting up a bit rough.

I'll stop there as there is more but that's the gist and where I am at.

I'll ask for opinions and thoughts here.

When installation and the hours for performing the installation is included in the contract, then there is usually an expiration time for installation hours. This should be part of the standard contract conditions. We are using Orgalime conditions.
If the customer delays the installation for too long, then your obligation expires.
But if there is no contractual text that covers this, then it may be local laws that decides the matter.

Especially with the expired guarantee, I think that the customer has no claim on you.
I think you have to draw up a new contract, and you can offer him a discount, but definitely do not gift it away.

Definately not do it for free.
Maybe offer them a discounted price if you feel like there could be more work for them in the future.

I would charge testing the current installation, drawing revisioned wiring diagrams and charge everything that is additional job (like solving issues and after 6 years there will be something). I would also tell them that guarantee is not valid anymore. You will get your money from maintenance that will be fully charged.
It is not question if you're obligated to do it - after 6 years you are not under any European law, but you have to demonstrate good will.

Seems like a business you wouldn't want to work with in the future, if they have balls to call you to do it for free.

Somehow they have concluded that the contract was fulfilled, why else would have they already paid you (in full)? But yes, go look for what the contract said, I really hope you had a timeline or done latest by there about the upgrade and it wasn't open ended.

I sympathise with you, I did a project where it was never complete only part of the job was done similar to yours, upgraded a system but never implemented the extras, i.e. extra I/O & programming, I did not do the installation only the software the customer supplied the equipment so I was only contracted to do the code, I completed the first stage i.e. made it work as is but with new PLC etc. I was paid for the whole job (well the company I worked for was), the system was how can I put it about 40% for the first stage & 60% for the final stage, this was actually paid before we did the job (their capital leg wanted to get rid of the money before financial year end).
4 years on & suddenly they wanted it completed, we did agree to re-cost the 60% based on current prices minus the original 60% cost of the second stage, we added the engineering time to re-cost plus meetings (felt sure there would be changes etc.) we normally had a low hourly charge for this customer due to continuous work, however, for this one job we quoted for normal prices it was a trade off, did not want to loose the customer, prices were agreed & job completed,
I would say there may be some contractual onus on you, however, the original cost & the delay means you should at least be able to come to a new financial agreement with the customer, there could also be some other costs that could be for example if it meant that time allocated to the extras could not be made up i.e. fall onto another job then perhaps they should have paid for the lost revenue.
The above customer decided to put clauses in the contracts regarding lost production costs in the event of the project being late, my boss said that's fine but we will also demand the same should we be delayed, they backed down.
I certainly suggest that future contracts ensure protection by careful wording but that is not always easy.

Considering there's no relationship as such, I'd discuss about the rate and costs difference from 6 years ago and reverting any modifications done to the panel delivered.

I'm usually the client and wouldn't consider asking something like this for free because someone made a **** up. This being said, where abouts in London are you? Are you East/North?

I'll add to my above comments that installation hours are usually NOT part of the normal contract, exactly for this reason as well as other reasons.
Installation hours are usually billed separately and by the hour instead of fixed price.

You would probably be within your contract rights by asserting that any potential claims for incomplete work expired when the warranty / guarantee expired, and treat this as an all-new time and materials contract. The UK has a far longer civil statute of limitation for breach of contract (generally six years) than most US jurisdictions, though.

It is also a realistic approach to credit the already-paid labor against the costs of opening up your schedule, refreshing your records, tools, and familiarity, and adapting your control panel to the as-built changes.

How much of the next-phase cost you credit is a negotiation factor. I might argue that it's been 5 years since the warranty expired, so I will reduce the labor price on this phase by 1/5.

The approach of the new electrician and engineer would be my decision-making factor: if they *show* you more site work that they can hire you for, be more generous with carry-forward accounting. If they bluster about how they will never hire you for future work if you don't do this for free, politely decline.

Another consideration is whether the final payment was negotiated with the presumption that you would finish the work later. Were there progress payment terms in the original contract? What was your justification for invoicing the full contract amount when you had not completed all of the contracted work?
Your situation is somewhat similar to a retailer who sells a gift card. That's payment in advance for goods to be delivered later. Most gift cards have an expiration date.
It's unreasonable of the customer to expect you to do the work for free. It's equally unreasonable for you to expect full payment for every hour you spend on the project since you have already been paid for work you didn't complete. If you and the customer can agree on those two statements as the starting point for negotiations on how to proceed, you stand a chance of getting to a settlement where you're both satisfied.

Steve Bailey said:

Most gift cards have an expiration date.

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'Most' indeed. Not two weeks ago I found an old Best Buy card that had been gathering dust for about 20 years. 'No expiration date. No fees' it said, and I used it for its full value.

As others have stated, look to the exact terms of the contract.

imo the length of time and changed circumstances make it reasonable to expect that the contract should be renegotiated if there is a desire to see the project completed, but you should expect to count as consideration any work previously done or money already paid.

Contract or not I would tell them that after 6 years the project engineering would have to be gone over completely for new OSHA, NEMA, NFPA and other regulations, do a full investigation of the present equipment for changes over the past 6 years, and check the condition of the equipment as if it degraded over the past 6 years you will not do the upgrade for liability reasons.

Also if you have a different liability insurance carrier than when you did it you may officially have to check everything out under the new carrier before they may cover it.

Plus the inspections and time going over the old 'new' system and the equipment will be billed with a substantial downpayment that clears first.

I_Automation said:

Contract or not I would tell them that after 6 years the project engineering would have to be gone over completely for new OSHA, NEMA, NFPA and other regulations, do a full investigation of the present equipment for changes over the past 6 years, and check the condition of the equipment as if it degraded over the past 6 years you will not do the upgrade for liability reasons.

Also if you have a different liability insurance carrier than when you did it you may officially have to check everything out under the new carrier before they may cover it.

Plus the inspections and time going over the old 'new' system and the equipment will be billed with a substantial downpayment that clears first.

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Exactly what he said!!

Thanks for the replies. The fog is clearing a little with the job.
I spoke to the boss/owner on the phone yesterday.
He was aware that the 'upgrades' were going ahead - they were discussed in a meeting.
He was aware that I had been contacted to do them for the original price but he seemed a nice man and laughed at the audacity. He said something on the lines of 'they took a shot'

But, as you'd expect after all this time, the spec has changed.
You'll already know this but trying to explain that if the spec has changed - so has the program. There was an awkward bit where I'm sure he thought I was bulking the job up. The magic box does it all by itself.

To be cont.... after a site visit.

Ronnie Sullivan said:

He said something on the lines of 'they took a shot'

To be cont.... after a site visit.

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Would advice to keep a sharp eye in case some smart guy at your customer tries to 'take a new shot' at your company so he can claim a big saving to his company and thus a big Christmas bonus.