Emergency Stop (E-Stop) Wiring Options - Dual Channel

The E-stop would be for ...

There are a lot more questions and answers that need to be asked and answered be for anyone would be able to give you advice... if I were you I would do just as you are and asked opinions and have a few options then present them to whom is working on the and maybe use the equipment as they may have concerns also.

When it comes to safety its a pain for many reasons but most important you want it to do just that and protect people

This also sounds like a possibility for a ZES or Lockout Tagout but thats another story

theColonel26 said:
What kind of equipment is this?

For about 15 years I worked in the printed circuit board industry and traveled a lot throughout the US and the majority was/is this way. If you hit the e-stop you kill everything, then you have a reset button to turn back on control power after the e-stop has been reset.
 
The E-stop would be for controlling a system that is housed within a steel, locked container unit, inside the container would be the PLC, motor and a few sensors. Hence the likelihood of anything happening while it's closed and locked is very low. However the likelihood rises if the container is opened and the system is running as there will be a running motor within very close proximity with no/not much guarding around it. So the E-stop will be located inside the container and would really only be used by maintenance guys/engineers who go inside the container.

What's stopping someone just running the machine with the door open?
 
What's stopping someone just running the machine with the door open?


the containers are to remain locked and only accessed by maintenance/engineers, but you have a point, I guess this is why there's an e-stop included inside, should the worst happen
 
a renewable energy and power storage system

Nice! should be a fun project

the containers are to remain locked and only accessed by maintenance/engineers

That was kind my point also, there should be a LOTO (ZES) procedure when someone enters and if this is the case no need for an e-stop because its going to be disabled anyway?
 
Nice! should be a fun project



That was kind my point also, there should be a LOTO (ZES) procedure when someone enters and if this is the case no need for an e-stop because its going to be disabled anyway?


Sorry, just had to google what a LOTO (ZES) was, picking up the terminology! I've worked on previous systems with lockable isolators but in this case the client asked for an e-stop so that's why I'm going with it. Lockable isolator would work but client would see the e-stop as a quicker/easier option to implement (i.e., no drilling/cutting required, compared to installing an isolator on the outside/entry of the container)
 
I really am not trying to be a d!ck believe me, but what is the point of the ESTOP?

You open the door and the risk of injuring yourself is right in front of you.

The door to stop you injuring yourself is open but the motor keeps spinning anyway, because the customer says that's what they want and it's quicker and easier, won't cut it.

If something happened to the maintenance/engineer and he / she became injured, the HSE would ask you:

'What did you do to stop the motor running when the door was open?'

'Well I put an ESTOP in there'

'If you noted there was a risk of injury of running the motor with the door open, why did you allow the machine to run with the door open?'

'The customer said it was ok and it was quicker and easier'

I don't know your company and I don't know your customer, but if something doesn't feel right etc etc
 
I really am not trying to be a d!ck believe me, but what is the point of the ESTOP?

You open the door and the risk of injuring yourself is right in front of you.

The door to stop you injuring yourself is open but the motor keeps spinning anyway, because the customer says that's what they want and it's quicker and easier, won't cut it.

If something happened to the maintenance/engineer and he / she became injured, the HSE would ask you:

'What did you do to stop the motor running when the door was open?'

'Well I put an ESTOP in there'

'If you noted there was a risk of injury of running the motor with the door open, why did you allow the machine to run with the door open?'

'The customer said it was ok and it was quicker and easier'

I don't know your company and I don't know your customer, but if something doesn't feel right etc etc


You're right, I'll suggest it to the client and see what they say. If they decide against it, I can't force them to install it right? and if they want to do it anyway then it has to be a decision they make and accept liability for, which is why I plan to put it in writing and have them sign off on it, something along the lines of "as no risk assessment has been carried out and there is moving machinery, i accept liability for the system and cannot assign blame etc etc".


Maybe they will decide on installing a lockable isolator or removing the danger/risk or coming into contact with moving machinery when they're sending the final versions out to sites/customers but right now, it's in a testing phase so almost a prototype at the moment
 
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If you are designing and building the machine, you do the dictating. Not the other way around. The customers opinion doesn't trump law.


Good point - with that in mind, in the desing, I will include the lockable isolator on the outside, just like geniusintraining mentioned.


Would including the isolator and instructing that it must be turned off prior to entry, be sufficent or does it need to be a fool proof system, meaning as soon as you open the container, power automatically cuts off by means of a safety switch/magnetic switch?
 
You seem to be lacking a huge amount of experience to be taking something like this on. I'm not saying you can't do it because it's not complex but if you get it wrong someone can get hurt, and believe me fingers will be pointed at you. I think all automation software guys I know would know the basics with this.

I know you said the containers were to remain locked but maintenance guys will do what's easy. Just yesterday I had some guys unbolt the interlock from the frame to access a guarded area because the proper access procedure involved walking to the end of the line (they forgot how to do it was their excuse). I would use a solenoid release interlock so that the system must be powered on and in a safe condition before it allows access and you could add in a run down timer to ensure any moving parts have time to stop first but there are many more things to consider
 
What you need to consider is what potential injury could be caused by the motor or any of it's connected parts, if for example the motor was driving a pump & the interlink connection was shielded there is little possibility of these causing injury i.e. no moving parts exposed, however, other possibilities are fractured pipe causing a corrosive liquid to be sprayed if you see what I mean then the risk assesment should highlight the possibilities of injury or death.
Just because there are mechanical moving parts it depends on what these are, a motor in itself is not usually considered a danger, what it is driving could be.
As the purpose of opening the container would be for maintenance only then perhaps the following would apply.
Engineer access only ( could be a procedure where only engineering have access to the key, this to be signed out when required, training & warning signs). Again, would need some form of identifiable way of isolation of equipment i.e. lockout, local isolator or complete power down & lockout once access has been granted if the plant is to be worked on.

In your case, it appears that your concern is the motor or what it is driving, you need to consider all equipment within the cabinet & the cabinet itself.
Would it be a confined space, in that case there needs to be a procedure for entry regardless of other factors like isolation, possible chemical or afixiation dangers, trapping the list goes on.
On our systems that had large cooking vessels, there was a procedure, this was for entry into confined spaces should an engineer need to enter the vessel.
1. Entry permit issued (only to trained engineers)
2. Complete isolation of the plant i.e. panel locked out, motors isolated & locked off, steam & feed services locked off.
3. Safety harness & extract rope for person entering vessel.
4. 3 men (2 to initiate egress of person in vessel if required).
5. sign off & return of lock off keys.
So. just sticking an isolator on a motor although great for maintenance purposes is fine, but as a combined system there are other factors to consider, should an engineer has access on his own, consider an accident, perhaps a minimum of 2 persons at location if remote.
Some years ago, I did a comprehensive course run by Pilz, so although now not kept up to the latest legislation etc. it opened my mind, the current legislation lke machinery directive & as like most have this saying "As far as reasonably practicable", so it always puts the responsibility on the designer, in some situations it is impossible to "ISOLATE" particular equipment i.e. if it is required to be in operation during maintenance, however, all reasonable steps need to be taken to "Engineer" out the likelyhood of injury etc.
 
janner_10 said:
The customers opinion doesn't trump law.


My may concern would be, who is liable? if something happens is someone going to come after you and your company? I would make sure you have the designed signed off by them and they state this is what they wanted and you are not held responsible
 
You seem to be lacking a huge amount of experience to be taking something like this on. I'm not saying you can't do it because it's not complex but if you get it wrong someone can get hurt, and believe me fingers will be pointed at you. I think all automation software guys I know would know the basics with this.

I know you said the containers were to remain locked but maintenance guys will do what's easy. Just yesterday I had some guys unbolt the interlock from the frame to access a guarded area because the proper access procedure involved walking to the end of the line (they forgot how to do it was their excuse). I would use a solenoid release interlock so that the system must be powered on and in a safe condition before it allows access and you could add in a run down timer to ensure any moving parts have time to stop first but there are many more things to consider


The issue here is that I've been asked just to do the controls for exactly what's required, not to "design" and risk assess the job etc. I know that's a standard requirement but if I suggest these additional safety features they won't be interested - not at this point anyway. The client wants the basic controls in so they can fine tune/test the system at their own premises, hence just one e-stop.


You'll be shocked that the current system has no e-stop and the stop switch that's wired into the non safe plc is using a NO contact instead of NC.


In your example of guys unbolting an interlock from a frame - surely any accident caused here is their own fault and the law will see it that way?
 

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