When are extended operator pushbuttons allowed for start functions?

jets · Feb 1, 2022

[FONT=&quot]Hi,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Like the subject say I would like to know when are extended or raised operator allowed for a start function.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The machine in question starts a rotating function that draws material from a spool. Because the operator has to watch the material feed start it is not easy to look down at the button. There are seven button total and all are flush (at this time). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When is it OK to use an extended operator for a start function? It is my opinion that the operator should just take a bit more time to feel the buttons and then push the flush start button. Off the seven buttons in the panel this one is upper left most with an empty space below it, so it should be simple to find the button without looking down at it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is there anything that forbids an extended operator for start functions?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Comments please and thanks

[/FONT]

saultgeorge · Feb 1, 2022

jets said:
[FONT=&quot]Hi,[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Like the subject say I would like to know when are extended or raised operator allowed for a start function.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The machine in question starts a rotating function that draws material from a spool. Because the operator has to watch the material feed start it is not easy to look down at the button. There are seven button total and all are flush (at this time). [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]When is it OK to use an extended operator for a start function? It is my opinion that the operator should just take a bit more time to feel the buttons and then push the flush start button. Off the seven buttons in the panel this one is upper left most with an empty space below it, so it should be simple to find the button without looking down at it.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Is there anything that forbids an extended operator for start functions?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Comments please and thanks
[/FONT]

I haven't heard of anything that would "forbid" a raised button, however maybe one could install a finger swipe or optitouch light. Those would take a conscious effort to trigger and they would eliminate an accidental push of the wrong button at the wrong time.

Nova5 · Feb 1, 2022

Any reason you can't give them a spring return momentary turn switch? it would be a distinct different feel to the buttons. 3 positions. Off Run Start. Pretty much like a car ignition switch. Run position allows operation to continue but can't start it.

dogleg43 · Feb 1, 2022

Maybe you could use a guarded push button like this:

James Mcquade · Feb 2, 2022

+1 - use a guarded illuminated push to test button to start, the light indicates run mode, and another guarded stop pushbutton for stop.
the operator feeling his way across buttons is asking for trouble in my opinion.
a risk assessment should be done to define the safest course of operation.
james

I_Automation · Feb 2, 2022

I was going to suggest the guarded button, then saw James already did.

The problem with a extended button for operation is an elbow leaning on the panel can easily push it. Also, as noted, if the operator is not looking and just feeling for a button and there is more than one button on the panel (as in every panel) there;s going to be the wrong button pressed often.

mylespetro · Feb 2, 2022

I was also going to recommend a guarded pushbutton, but figured someone else would have a better idea. Not sure how to convince the operators not to go by touch instead of sight though.

Tom Jenkins · Feb 2, 2022

Did it ever occur to you to put a local switch, directly in front of the operator's position, in parallel to the one on the panel? For under $100 you could have one located where he could see it and the roll simultaneously.
https://www.amazon.com/push-button-station/s?k=push+button+station&page=4

arpus4KM · Feb 2, 2022

Either install a parallel button at the location he stands.

Train the operator to look at what he's touching before touching it (yikes).

or guard the PB like said.

9/10 the issue can be solved by making things easier to operate, but 1/10 times it will never work because the operator is the issue and you'll have every possible fix in place, but they still find ways to make sure things aren't working as intended.

Tom Jenkins has a good point. Most presses or machines with an operator panel that is too far away from the press to allow a single person to put their hand in while operating, will have remote pendant type stations for specific circumstances. Such as tool and die or maintenance who need to run or jog a machine while closer to it.

PLCDontUQuitOnMe · Feb 2, 2022

May I suggest an alternative?

Install an HMI if there isn't one already and have a single screen with a single "Start Process" button. Tie the X,Y coordinates of the button to a couple of integers in the PLC and randomize the values. Change values every second or so. The operator will appreciate this new added fun of playing Whack-A-Mole to start the machine.

For extra fun: Tie the integer values to some analog inputs and wire them to a couple of potentiometers around the machine and adjust to taste while the operator furiously mashes the screen. Make sure to stifle any laughter and make it look like you are performing some serious adjustments to the machine. Or better yet, tie the integer values to a web server if available and remotely adjust positions from the comfort of your office while watching the operator through the window.

arpus4KM · Feb 2, 2022

PLCDontUQuitOnMe said:
May I suggest an alternative?

Install an HMI if there isn't one already and have a single screen with a single "Start Process" button. Tie the X,Y coordinates of the button to a couple of integers in the PLC and randomize the values. Change values every second or so. The operator will appreciate this new added fun of playing Whack-A-Mole to start the machine.

For extra fun: Tie the integer values to some analog inputs and wire them to a couple of potentiometers around the machine and adjust to taste while the operator furiously mashes the screen. Make sure to stifle any laughter and make it look like you are performing some serious adjustments to the machine. Or better yet, tie the integer values to a web server if available and remotely adjust positions from the comfort of your office while watching the operator through the window.

you know, that is hilarious, but also cruel in it's reflection of real life.

DOD Logins when I was in the Navy were just as bad!

at least 10 characters long, 2 lower, 2 upper, 2 number, 2 special required. Can't use the last 10 passwords, must be changed every 3 months.

when you login to check anything you insert your CAC (chip) card into the keyboard, and get a window on the screen where you use the mouse to type in credentials. and the password keyboard on screen is randomized EVERY TIME so keyloggers and mouse loggers can't be used.... Holy hell, the time it took just to check benefits sometimes...

I_Automation · Feb 2, 2022

IanM8040 said:
DOD Logins when I was in the Navy were just as bad!

at least 10 characters long, 2 lower, 2 upper, 2 number, 2 special required. Can't use the last 10 passwords, must be changed every 3 months...

I had to help a circuit board shop create a DOD passowrd. Yours must be old/

32 characters exactly.
3 Upper case minimum

3 lower case minimum
3 numbers minimum
3 special characters minimum, but not all - only the ones they allowed
Can not have more than 3 numbers in a row
Can not have more than 3 lower case letters in a row
Can not have more than 3 upper case letters in a row
Can not have more than 3 special characters in a row.

With me helping it took almost 20 minutes to get a password that was acceptable.

My question was how is anyone going to remember it without writing it in Sharpee on the monitor? So how secure could it be?

Nobody ever guessed my password of OperatorError@8AM

mylespetro · Feb 2, 2022

I_Automation said:
I had to help a circuit board shop create a DOD passowrd. Yours must be old/

32 characters exactly.
3 Upper case minimum

3 lower case minimum
3 numbers minimum
3 special characters minimum, but not all - only the ones they allowed
Can not have more than 3 numbers in a row
Can not have more than 3 lower case letters in a row
Can not have more than 3 upper case letters in a row
Can not have more than 3 special characters in a row.

With me helping it took almost 20 minutes to get a password that was acceptable.

My question was how is anyone going to remember it without writing it in Sharpee on the monitor? So how secure could it be?

Nobody ever guessed my password of OperatorError@8AM

At least by the sounds of it, you weren't required to change the password every 90 days!

arpus4KM · Feb 2, 2022

I_Automation said:
I had to help a circuit board shop create a DOD passowrd. Yours must be old/

32 characters exactly.
3 Upper case minimum

3 lower case minimum
3 numbers minimum
3 special characters minimum, but not all - only the ones they allowed
Can not have more than 3 numbers in a row
Can not have more than 3 lower case letters in a row
Can not have more than 3 upper case letters in a row
Can not have more than 3 special characters in a row.

With me helping it took almost 20 minutes to get a password that was acceptable.

My question was how is anyone going to remember it without writing it in Sharpee on the monitor? So how secure could it be?

Nobody ever guessed my password of OperatorError@8AM

That's just it! the unintended consequence of making it that difficult to even make or remember one, meant everybody had it written down either in their wallet (which they lost overseas!) or on their phone, which at the time would have been a motorola razer at best, stored as a name or phone number

I_Automation · Feb 2, 2022

mylespetro said:
At least by the sounds of it, you weren't required to change the password every 90 days!

That gets fun.

I log into Social Security once a year to check my earnings and projected retirement (I'm going to work until the day I die with those numbers}

The password has to be changed every 6 months, so checking in once a year triggers a bad password. And the new password can't be any old password ever used.

When are extended operator pushbuttons allowed for start functions?

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